Panel upgrade - do I have to go Garmin?

[NewMoon]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you look at Avidyne's STC, the GI275s have been added to their STC. Join http://avidynelive.com/.

The Dynon autopilot will not be certified for long body Mooneys so cross that off the list. That's good news since your KFC225 was a $50,000+ autopilot and flies on rails when it is set up correctly. The Dynon one is a few thousand and comes over from the experimental world. 

I would stick with option one and then see what happens as long as everything is working. Then maybe a couple GI-275s (or maybe 3 for an certified engine monitor)

 

One thing you will have to address, and it should be first since when they go, the airplane is grounded, is the Moritz engine gauges - they will fail one at a time and it will require a certified replacement (JPI 730 is not certified, just additional information): JPI930, 900 or an EI MVP-50 or a Garmin EIS. There is no other way around it since: 1)  the Moritz gauges do fail, all of them eventually and 2) there is no support available.

Any airplane that I've looked at since 2009 that had Moritz gauges I have always subtracted $10,000 and now it would be more than $12,000 since with most engine gauge upgrades it requires a new panel.

Great input here, a key component often over looked

[ArtVandelay]

why wouldn't it make sense to keep them, they do the same things.   you may miss 1 or 2 minor features, are they worth the massive expense ?

Smart glide, VNAV plus maybe a few others.

[PT20J]

I had an Aspen and liked it, but I would not buy one now. I'm not sure of Aspen's staying power in the market, especially since they haven't introduced anything new for a long time except for the Max Evolution refresh which I believe has had some issues. 

A pair of GI 275 is interesting because that works with the existing autopilot and still gives you a path to go with a GFC 500 in the future if needed or desired. Still, a big screen PFD with integrated map and engine instruments is nice...

As far as the IFD compatibility, don't look to Garmin. Garmin won't include it in its STCs because they would have to bear the expense of testing every new version of Avidyne software for continued compatibility, and really, why would they want to since Avidyne is a competitor. I'd look at what Avidyne says it will work with and talk to shops with experience combining Garmin and Avidyne boxes.

It's often compelling to think of doing the upgrades incrementally over time. But, a large part of the cost (somewhere between a third and half) is the labor and the cumulative labor costs are higher doing it incrementally. Also, the wiring tends to get messier with each successive dive behind the panel. It's better to bite the bullet, figure out what you want and tear the whole panel apart once and be done.

[Marc_B]

There are so many iterations and combinations that it’s hard to compare apples to apples. Rather it’s a long shade of grey regarding integration and capability. But as a pilot of a full Garmin all glass panel with a full featured EIS, it’s clear to see how a fully integrated, single company avionics suite is really easy to fly behind and extremely capable. I watch when others have to update baro settings in three places and it highlights that it’s not always a BIG improvement, but rather multiple small improvements that you get from a modern integrated panel. At this time Garmin seems to be winning in the best coordination of all the avionics. However the qualifier is that it’s not cheap and often can be as much or more than the cost of the aircraft to get this capability.  For a lot of pilots this just doesn’t make sense, especially since you’d probably only get half the value of cost of equipment at resale. 
So the big question is what level of integration would you like and how much are you willing to pay to get it?

For most, it’s a one shot thing. Incremental additions aren’t usually nearly as clean and integrated and just add to the total cost. But general gist of priorities follow around the thought of full featured engine monitor, high quality WAAS nav/comm, followed by solid IFR capable autopilot. 

[Max Clark]

9 hours ago, PT20J said:

It's better to bite the bullet, figure out what you want and tear the whole panel apart once and be done.

Great advice thanks

[Pinecone]

For the IFD, just tell yourself that it is a Garmin 430 or 530 and move on.  If the 430/530 does it, the IFD will also.  Many shops will install with IFD as a minor mod version a 430/530..

My plane came with an Aspen 1000 Pro (not MAX).  I seriously looked at going to a 2000 Pro MAX as they were offering a killer upgrade deal for Oshkosh last year.  The bang for buck was very good.  Only thing was, I was still looking at a 7 - 8 month lead time for the install at my preferred avionics shop.  And then, if later I wanted to go Garmin, it would be another long wait.

So I decided to bite the bullet and just go all in Garmin.  10" G3X Touch pilot side, 7" on right side. G-5 back (already had in the panel). GTN-750Xi and -650Xi (already had), GFC-500, Remote GTX-345 transponder. WX500 remote Storm Scope, SXM, PS Engineering 450B audio panel.   There is thread about it in the Avionics section called "Let the games begin"

One things with the Aspen.  The EA-100 interface to the auto pilot is known to fail at times.  Mine did.  Luckily my shop had one to loan me for a few months until my shop date.

[bcg]

So when I bought my plane, I started asking about avionics pretty much immediately as well.  The overwhelming majority said "Fly the plane for a year and then think about avionics."  I ended up doing that and, I'm glad I did for a couple of reasons.  The first being that even though I got a well maintained plane that had been flying 100+ hours per year, I had some unexpected maintenance come up pretty early on.  Starter, battery and generator went out and had to be replaced, the generator got replaced with an alternator.  I did the work myself and had my IA sign off on it so, I saved a lot but, it was still several AMUs to do all this.  There were other little odds and ends here and there that ended up costing me something like 15 - 17 AMUs in the first year, before I got to my annual.  I'm glad I didn't spend a bunch of money on avionics right away.

When I got to my first annual, I only planned on installing and EDM-930.  Scope creep got it's hooks in me and before it was done I ended up adding a 2nd G5 with LRUs, replacing an older NAVCOM with an SL-30, the EDM-930, replacing all the wiring and reorganizing the whole panel.  I'm really happy with how it turned out and can honestly say that if I'd done avionics right in the beginning like I'd wanted to, it wouldn't have been anywhere this nice and/or functional.

The TLDR is this, fly the plane for a year and then decide what to do about the panel.  You'll know better what is and isn't working for you with the current setup.

[Max Clark]

29 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

There is thread about it in the Avionics section called "Let the games begin"

Thanks I'll look that up

[Max Clark]

12 minutes ago, bcg said:

The TLDR is this, fly the plane for a year and then decide what to do about the panel.  You'll know better what is and isn't working for you with the current setup.

Great advice - baring something happening exactly what I'm going to do

[ArtVandelay]

I made the decision after my 1st cross country, KNS80 was INOP, JPI 700 segments were not working, old 430 with no WAAS, no ADSB.
It was an easy decision.

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

Great advice - baring something happening exactly what I'm going to do

I was in a similar circumstance to you a few years ago. I had a nice well maintained 1982 vintage 231 in great shape but with a panel that had been upgraded several times over the years with a variety of different brands of equipment. I chose to go with Garmin and have absolutely no regrets with a little over 100 hours flying with the new equipment. Other than potential cost savings, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to choose a suite of products that were DESIGNED to integrate together, rather than piece stuff together and hope it works. I went with (2)G3x for the display, a G5, GTN650xi, GNX375 and a GFC500 autopilot and a few other gadgets.

Everything works great together. My flight plan automatically cross fills to the GNX375, and I have functional VNAV capability which is quite convenient. There is no functionality issues due to incompatible equipment.

[JayMatt]

The TLDR is this, fly the plane for a year and then decide what to do about the panel.  You'll know better what is and isn't working for you with the current setup.

 

I did this also. Then I realized what a waste of money a panel upgrade was going to be. For the life of me, I don't know what a 50k panel can do that I couldn't already do for free... I've yet to answer that question and so I've gone back to flying the way my grandpa flew and I have no regrets. 

[Yetti]

My Mooney guy got a retro 172 off the field.   He has been tossing the certified AV-30 in the panel.   About half the cost of the 275.   https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/uavionix_11-17556.php

[MikeOH]

46 minutes ago, JayMatt said:

The TLDR is this, fly the plane for a year and then decide what to do about the panel.  You'll know better what is and isn't working for you with the current setup.

 

I did this also. Then I realized what a waste of money a panel upgrade was going to be. For the life of me, I don't know what a 50k panel can do that I couldn't already do for free... I've yet to answer that question and so I've gone back to flying the way my grandpa flew and I have no regrets. 

I just had to quote and reiterate this philosophy. Sure, there are a FEW owners that really make use of all the features of a state-of-the-art panel, but I think the NEED for one is pretty small for the vast majority of owners of single engine light aircraft.

I find my 430W, GPSS, and STEC-30 perfectly adequate for any mission (weather) that I'm going to tackle.  As you point out our grandpas managed to safely fly without even that level of equipment.

[Max Clark]

21 minutes ago, Yetti said:

My Mooney guy got a retro 172 off the field.   He has been tossing the certified AV-30 in the panel.   About half the cost of the 275.   https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/uavionix_11-17556.php

That's pretty slick

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, JayMatt said:

I did this also. Then I realized what a waste of money a panel upgrade was going to be. For the life of me, I don't know what a 50k panel can do that I couldn't already do for free... I've yet to answer that question and so I've gone back to flying the way my grandpa flew and I have no regrets. 

It is not that you cannot do it.  It is about making it easier to do, thus providing safety in lower the risk of task saturation. 

I learned with 6 pack.  An HSI was AMAZING.  No autopilot (including in supersonic jets).  But the modern stuff just means I have more time to think about the whole situation.

[bcg]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

That's pretty slick

The AV-30 is a nice little unit, I've flown a 172 with a pair of them.  The down side in your situation though, would be that it can't drive the AP whereas a G5 or GI275 can.  So, the extra expense of the Garmin gives you AP control.

[toto]

9 hours ago, JayMatt said:

The TLDR is this, fly the plane for a year and then decide what to do about the panel.  You'll know better what is and isn't working for you with the current setup.

 

I did this also. Then I realized what a waste of money a panel upgrade was going to be. For the life of me, I don't know what a 50k panel can do that I couldn't already do for free... I've yet to answer that question and so I've gone back to flying the way my grandpa flew and I have no regrets. 

My own approach to this is that I never want to spend money fixing old technology when newer, better technology is available.

People spend many many AMUs on repair and overhaul of analog equipment, year after year, but their capabilities never increase because they’re always running vintage avionics. The cost to fix my old Century 2000 autopilot wasn’t far off the cost of a GFC 500, and the cost to overhaul my analog HSI was more than the cost of a G5. So I made the decision to replace rather than repair.

To each his own, of course, and I agree with flying the plane for a year to figure out what you want. But keeping the factory equipment running felt like death by a thousand cuts to me, and I’m happier having spent the money on the new stuff than I was spending the money keeping the old stuff breathing. 

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, toto said:

My own approach to this is that I never want to spend money fixing old technology when newer, better technology is available.

People spend many many AMUs on repair and overhaul of analog equipment, year after year, but their capabilities never increase because they’re always running vintage avionics. The cost to fix my old Century 2000 autopilot wasn’t far off the cost of a GFC 500, and the cost to overhaul my analog HSI was more than the cost of a G5. So I made the decision to replace rather than repair.

To each his own, of course, and I agree with flying the plane for a year to figure out what you want. But keeping the factory equipment running felt like death by a thousand cuts to me, and I’m happier having spent the money on the new stuff than I was spending the money keeping the old stuff breathing. 

I removed a perfectly working vacuum AI that did its job well and replaced it with an AV30.  Hoping to successfully complete a pitot static cert tomorrow and a first test flight.  I’m sweating bullets that this exercise is going to devolve into a self inflicted cycle of more maintenance. I noticed some jitter in the display when taxing; hopefully there is not too much vibration in the panel.  But I’m a pessimist based on the last few months of auto and airplane maintenance.  Hopefully I’m worrying for no reason.  

[donkaye]

14 hours ago, JayMatt said:

I did this also. Then I realized what a waste of money a panel upgrade was going to be. For the life of me, I don't know what a 50k panel can do that I couldn't already do for free... I've yet to answer that question and so I've gone back to flying the way my grandpa flew and I have no regrets. 

Depending on your age it probably IS a good idea to feel comfortable with the plane as is before you think about an upgrade.  One of the downsides is that next year any upgrade will most likely cost you a whole lot more.  For example, when I did my upgrade 10 years ago the GTN 750 cost about $13,500.  Now they are nearly $20,000.  I spent several months investigating all the products out there at the time before making my choice.  For a variety of reasons I decided to go all Garmin except for products that Garmin didn't make at the time.  During the past 10 years as Garmin came out with new or upgraded products I exchanged for them fairly easily.  There were product upgrade costs, but to me they were reasonable.

I got my instrument rating in 1992 and with about 375 total hours, I bought my Mooney 1 month later.  I got the rating with the 6 pack, 2 BK radios, and an ADF.  That was actually a lot of avionics at the time.  You needed to visualize your surroundings, time a lot of things, and hope the Controller didn't forget about you.  (There were a number of accidents I recall where they did forget).  One of the reasons I got back into flying was BECAUSE of the fancy new avionics that were being created, and the TLS had the latest and greatest.  I only bought 2 pieces of avionics in the first 20 years of ownership, the KLN 90B GPS and the PS Engineering 7000B audio panel because I wanted stereo.  There was still some visualization necessary because the EFIS 40 was by today's standards a very primitive HSI/PFD.  Even today I still think the KLN 90B was the best 2nd generation GPS.

I skipped the 3rd generation radios from Garmin because I thought the KLN 90B was adequate for my needs.  But then Garmin started really putting out products right and left.  The new products offered were like the realization of science fiction when I was born.  The enhanced safety features trumped the expenditures in my opinion.  I went all in much to the surprise of everyone who thought from my conversations that I would never upgrade, just talk a good story of "someday".

10 years later and with nearly 13,000 flying and teaching hours, even with the new competition from Avidyne, Dynon, and Aspen, having flown and taught in all of them, I would choose the same products.

I hope this gives some perspective to those thinking about upgrading their panels.  I've posted a picture of the panel in the past, but it seems appropriate to do it again here.  Not shown because they are remote are the WX 500 Stormscope, the GTS 800 Active Traffic, GMA 35C Audio Panel, FS 210, FS 510, Eagle AOA, and GDL 69A Receiver.  I keep the Aera 760 on the yoke for quick references and Jeppesen Charts.

[Z W]

I would also fly the plane for a while before pulling the trigger.  A new-to-you plane probably has some deferred maintenance items and you will find out quickly what they are.

We replaced the panel when the old King autopilot and HSI failed at the same time.  Went full Garmin 5 years ago and have no regrets.  Just upgraded the 430W we kept with a GTN650 to add crossfill, VNAV, and Smartglide capability.

You can lower the cost significantly in a full Garmin panel upgrade without decreasing much capability.  I see no reason for a second G3X on the co-pilot side in a Mooney without co-pilot brakes.  We kept the factory RPM and MP gauges as a backup, which I've had to use (even the new stuff fails eventually).  We now have a GTN650 and a GNC355, which is a lot less money than the usual GTN750/650 stack but does all the same things, minus one nav radio I would never use.  I would explore those options again before switching to Aspen, Dynon, or Avidyne as a compromise.

No shame on those who just want two of the biggest and best of everything, but if you're feeling daunted by the cost quotes you're getting, consider whether you really need all of that stuff to get a functional and redundant setup.

The main thing I like is that before there was always some old factory gauge or piece of avionics acting up, and now it all just works.  In 5 years I've only had the one failure when the EIS module on the G500TXi went bad.  Garmin said that was really rare and wanted it back so they could figure out what happened.  

[toto]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I removed a perfectly working vacuum AI that did its job well and replaced it with an AV30.  Hoping to successfully complete a pitot static cert tomorrow and a first test flight.  I’m sweating bullets that this exercise is going to devolve into a self inflicted cycle of more maintenance. I noticed some jitter in the display when taxing; hopefully there is not too much vibration in the panel.  But I’m a pessimist based on the last few months of auto and airplane maintenance.  Hopefully I’m worrying for no reason.  

Having had a number of vacuum pump failures in my flying career, in my opinion there is no better upgrade than replacing a vacuum AI with a solid state digital unit. Good luck with the certification today!

[Pinecone]

Another thing with going all Garmin is resale.  While Dynon seems to make good stuff, IMO, a buyer will pay a premium for a Garmin panel.

No, you will not get your money back on the panel.

I agree with others to fly your airplane a year.  But no harm in starting to think and plan ahead of time.

 

[Max Clark]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

Depending on your age it probably IS a good idea to feel comfortable with the plane as is before you think about an upgrade.  One of the downsides is that next year any upgrade will most likely cost you a whole lot more.  For example, when I did my upgrade 10 years ago the GTN 750 cost about $13,500.  Now they are nearly $20,000.  I spent several months investigating all the products out there at the time before making my choice.  For a variety of reasons I decided to go all Garmin except for products that Garmin didn't make at the time.  During the past 10 years as Garmin came out with new or upgraded products I exchanged for them fairly easily.  There were product upgrade costs, but to me they were reasonable.

I got my instrument rating in 1992 and with about 375 total hours, I bought my Mooney 1 month later.  I got the rating with the 6 pack, 2 BK radios, and an ADF.  That was actually a lot of avionics at the time.  You needed to visualize your surroundings, time a lot of things, and hope the Controller didn't forget about you.  (There were a number of accidents I recall where they did forget).  One of the reasons I got back into flying was BECAUSE of the fancy new avionics that were being created, and the TLS had the latest and greatest.  I only bought 2 pieces of avionics in the first 20 years of ownership, the KLN 90B GPS and the PS Engineering 7000B audio panel because I wanted stereo.  There was still some visualization necessary because the EFIS 40 was by today's standards a very primitive HSI/PFD.  Even today I still think the KLN 90B was the best 2nd generation GPS.

I skipped the 3rd generation radios from Garmin because I thought the KLN 90B was adequate for my needs.  But then Garmin started really putting out products right and left.  The new products offered were like the realization of science fiction when I was born.  The enhanced safety features trumped the expenditures in my opinion.  I went all in much to the surprise of everyone who thought from my conversations that I would never upgrade, just talk a good story of "someday".

10 years later and with nearly 13,000 flying and teaching hours, even with the new competition from Avidyne, Dynon, and Aspen, having flown and taught in all of them, I would choose the same products.

I hope this gives some perspective to those thinking about upgrading their panels.  I've posted a picture of the panel in the past, but it seems appropriate to do it again here.  Not shown because they are remote are the WX 500 Stormscope, the GTS 800 Active Traffic, GMA 35C Audio Panel, FS 210, FS 510, Eagle AOA, and GDL 69A Receiver.  I keep the Aera 760 on the yoke for quick references and Jeppesen Charts.

Thanks for sharing

[Jetpilot86]

Add me into the fly it for a year club.

I've got a KFC150, being driven by a G600 PFD/MFD, being fed by the Avidyne 440/540 Combo.  Works good, took a month to get the G600 and the IFD's talking, but I would say definitely start stalking a bigger PFD/MFD.  I looked at the Aspen's and I like the raw real estate of my G600 much better.   I did make it easy because the G600 was already installed, and I swapped out the 430/530 that came with it.  I did have a couple of swaps because the 440/540 didn't talk to the FS210 for ADS-B, but it will take the feed from the GTX345 I swapped in.  Don't forget about the used market.  My avionics guy has done a lot of wheeling and dealing for me in the secondary market, buying and selling.  My 440/540 were factory OH with a New warranty, but all my other adds were used.  So far, so good.