Pre-Buy on M20J in Corona, CA

[CaliDreaminMr]

Hello, new group member here.  Looking for a good local mechanic in the area to perform a pre-buy on an M20J, located in Corona, CA.  Any suggestions or inputs would be greatly appreciated!

regards,

CaliDreaminMr

[ZuluZulu]

4 hours ago, CaliDreaminMr said:

Hello, new group member here.  Looking for a good local mechanic in the area to perform a pre-buy on an M20J, located in Corona, CA.  Any suggestions or inputs would be greatly appreciated!

regards,

CaliDreaminMr

Bill’s Air Center at El Monte (formerly Santa Monica). 

Foothill at Cable is an MSC.

California Aero Marketing at Fallbrook/John Wayne. 

(No particular order intended.)

[CaliDreaminMr]

Thank you for the quick response. I reached out to Foothill Cable (an MSC) last week and they did confirm availability to perform a pre-buy but not knowing what the going rates are for Pre-buys, I wanted to compare with others in the area. Will definitely reach out to Bill’s Air and California Aero Marketing. 

[Ron McBride]

Cost may not predict results.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, CaliDreaminMr said:

Thank you for the quick response. I reached out to Foothill Cable (an MSC) last week and they did confirm availability to perform a pre-buy but not knowing what the going rates are for Pre-buys, I wanted to compare with others in the area. Will definitely reach out to Bill’s Air and California Aero Marketing. 

I submit that you may not want the lowest bidder for a pre-buy -- you really want the "best" pre-buy you can get.  And even then, sometimes you get expensive surprises after you buy the airplane.

[CaliDreaminMr]

Ron McBride, copy that.
 

And fly Boomer understood. I am certainly willing to  pay more for a pre-buy to get the best prebuy I can and acknowledge that even then, surprises could happen. I guess cost to me is second to a good mechanic with a thorough understanding of Mooneys to reduce those risks of surprises. 
 

 

[kortopates]

From the sound of it, you’re already delegating or putting all your faith in the mechanic for the scope of the pre-buy which is a mistake.
Start with a review of the logs and draw up a pre-buy inspection list with the help of the mechanic that will cover Mooney specific issues and your mechanic can give you an estimate of the hours to do it.
There are some pre-buy checklist in the file section to help you.


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[CaliDreaminMr]

Thanks for the feedback. I met with owner and did an inspection of the logs and plane yesterday. All Logs are complete and appear in good order with all ADs in compliance.  Airplane is flown regularly and hangared.  I used a pre-buy checklist I found from Lasar to get a feel for what a pre-buy entails to help me with my questions and brief eval of the plane.  I will also take look at the pre-buys you mentioned that are on this site. I have received a quote and will likely use the Mooney Service Center in Upland for the pre-buy and planning to walk through the pre-buy checklist with the mechanic who will perform the pre-buy before finalizing on the pre-buy. 

[ZuluZulu]

20 hours ago, CaliDreaminMr said:

I am certainly willing to  pay more for a pre-buy to get the best prebuy I can and acknowledge that even then, surprises could happen. I guess cost to me is second to a good mechanic with a thorough understanding of Mooneys to reduce those risks of surprises. 

There’s no such thing as a singular “Prebuy” on the shelf and you can pay more to get a nicer one, like paying more for a Mercedes over a Chevrolet. You’re paying the mechanic for his or her time inspecting the plane, and how much time they need to spend is dependent on what you want them to look for, what hints toward possible issues you’ve gleaned from the logs, and how thorough you want them to be. Do you want them to scour every inch ($$$$) or just do a compression check and call it a day ($)? This should be a discussion with your mechanic about your priorities, a discussion informed by doing your research first as @kortopates describes above.

For example, if your priorities are corrosion, engine health, and landing gear shock disks, and as an aside you want the mechanic to look for anything else significant based on an annual checklist, he or she can give you a great idea of how much time that will take, and you can budget accordingly. Prebuys are a garbage in-garbage out system: if you don’t give any guidance on what you want, you may not like the outcome. But if you first have a conversation with the mechanic about what’s important to you and what you’re hoping to learn, your odds can improve dramatically. 

[CaliDreaminMr]

Appreciate the input ZuluZulu. Definitely don’t want to scour every inch of the plane. I plan to meet with the mechanic tomorrow to discuss my areas of concern to help scope the pre-buy accordingly, mainly focusing on engine health, corrosion, fuel leaks and anything else historically which are known issues of M20Js. 

[ZuluZulu]

LASAR also has a checklist. 

https://lasar.com/prebuy-check-list

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, CaliDreaminMr said:

Appreciate the input ZuluZulu. Definitely don’t want to scour every inch of the plane. I plan to meet with the mechanic tomorrow to discuss my areas of concern to help scope the pre-buy accordingly, mainly focusing on engine health, corrosion, fuel leaks and anything else historically which are known issues of M20Js. 

You really ought to scour it, because fixing the things missed can get hellishly expensive. Even things like the glideslope not capturing on the autopilot,  gyros, electric trim, all lof these quickly cascade upwards.  Thats on top of the usual damage, corrosion, shoddy repairs, inop or malfunctioning components, worn out rod ends, etc etc

[LANCECASPER]

On 12/9/2023 at 11:51 AM, CaliDreaminMr said:

Hello, new group member here.  Looking for a good local mechanic in the area to perform a pre-buy on an M20J, located in Corona, CA.  Any suggestions or inputs would be greatly appreciated!

regards,

CaliDreaminMr

Do you have a purchase agreement for an agreed-upon purchase price signed, which outlines that airworthy items will be repaired at the Seller's expense?

Unless you have a well-worded purchase agreement,  your pre-buy may find a lot of concerns and the Seller may or may not agree to pay for them. Without a good agreement, with a deposit on the airplane, you would be out the cost of the pre-buy if the Seller waffles.

 

@kortopates makes a very good point that you will direct what the pre-buy looks for. Here's an example of how things can get missed on a pre-buy:

 

[CaliDreaminMr]

ZuluZulu, thanks for the LASAR checklist.

Jetdriven (Byron), thanks for the feedback.  I decided to go to Foothill Aircraft Services at Cable Airport where they have an MSC.  I'll ping the Manager tomorrow to share what the pre-buy involves to make sure it is as comprehensive as it can be while focusing on my major areas of concern.

LANCECASPER: I just drafted up a purchase agreement with the owner (with help from AOPA) and it does cover for an agreed-upon purchase price that airworthy items will be repaired at the Seller's expense and I would get my deposit back if Seller doesn't agree to fix them.  I would lose my deposit however, if after pre-buy, I decide to walk away without giving the Seller a chance to fix the items.  Thanks for sharing the example of missed corrosion on a pre-buy example.  Corrosion is an area I certainly want to focus on during the pre-buy.

 

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

A proper test flight is just as important as a prebuy.  There are many things a mechanic can’t find with the plane on the ground.   

[CaliDreaminMr]

Utah20Gflyer, thanks for the feedback.  I'll be flying with the owner to drop off the plane at the MSC this Wednesday and will make use of the flight to test our the plane and systems.

[Fritz1]

Welcome aboard, recommend you pay for the prebuy that is more thorough than an annual and costs more than a regular annual, make it very clear to the shop that you expect them to fix whatever they find in the prebuy if you buy the airplane, almost anything can be fixed with money besides some ugly forms of corrosion, after the prebuy you discuss the squak list with the seller and negotiate the selling price, if airplane is purchased prebuy shop fixes squaks and calls the prebuy an annual, if airplane not purchased you have learnt a lot and know exactly what to look for next time around. Typically 20-30% of purchase price are spent on repairs and upgrades during first two years of ownership presuming that the airplane was well maintained and flown regularly, last no least don't get emotionally involved and be ready to walk if things do not turn out to your liking, lots of birds out there and it may take you a couple of months to a year to figure out exactly what you want and locate a bird that checks most of the boxes, buy the best airplane you can afford, any upgrades, especially avionics are much more expensive later

[CaliDreaminMr]

Thanks Fritz1.  The Pre-buy was completed at a Mooney Service Center this past week. The owner flew his plane over the to MSC and has agreed to pay for a number of squawks for the MSC to fix and coordinated with his long standing A&P for fixing the remaining items.  I was able to negotiate a price reduction on the purchase to help facilitate a prop overhaul in the next couple months as the last prop IRAN was back in 2019.  The plane has the avionics I want for IFR (G5s, GI-275 MFD, GNS430W, autopilot, Flight steam 210 and 1300 TSOH on engine...so it's a plane that meets my needs.  As much as I liked the plane, if the pre-buy revealed some surprises and the owner didn't fix the squawks, I was prepared to walk.  But thankfully the owner has come thru and I am looking forward to owning an M20J at the beginning of the year once the squawks are fixed.  

[Fritz1]

Congratulations, J model excellent airplane, good balance, bang for the buck...

[CaliDreaminMr]

Thanks.  Looking forward to many adventures with Family/friends and other Mooney owners. 

[jaylw314]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:25 PM, CaliDreaminMr said:

Thanks Fritz1.  The Pre-buy was completed at a Mooney Service Center this past week. The owner flew his plane over the to MSC and has agreed to pay for a number of squawks for the MSC to fix and coordinated with his long standing A&P for fixing the remaining items.  I was able to negotiate a price reduction on the purchase to help facilitate a prop overhaul in the next couple months as the last prop IRAN was back in 2019.  The plane has the avionics I want for IFR (G5s, GI-275 MFD, GNS430W, autopilot, Flight steam 210 and 1300 TSOH on engine...so it's a plane that meets my needs.  As much as I liked the plane, if the pre-buy revealed some surprises and the owner didn't fix the squawks, I was prepared to walk.  But thankfully the owner has come thru and I am looking forward to owning an M20J at the beginning of the year once the squawks are fixed.  

Congratulations and good luck!

If you're lucky, the prop won't need an overhaul, 2019 is a pretty recent IRAN.  Heck, I'd probably avoid an IRAN unless there was something outwardly amiss given my experiences 

[Rwsavory]

Think twice before overhauling the prop. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2021/november/pilot/savvy-maintenance-propwash

[CaliDreaminMr]

Thanks jaylw314 and Rwsavory.  I'll monitor for now and re-evaluate prop overhaul or IRAN at next annual (11/24).