BC Pilots and flying over rockies?

[Stand_Tall]

Hello all! I hope you are doing well, I'm currently working on my PPL in Canada and was wondering if any of you guys fly a C in the Vancouver area? I've been looking and wondering about the practicality of flying over the Rockies to do cross countries into the prairies. Thanks a lot!

[wombat]

I've flown an E (and a K, and a 182) over the Rockies multiple times in the Northern United States.    

Yes, it is practical.   As practical as any light GA flight can be, anyway!

My advice:

• Take Oxygen.
• Plan a route that doesn't leave you without any good landing spots for very long, particularly IFR or night flights.
• Be prepared to shift your schedule by a day or two for weather.

[AndreiC]

I would be interested in this topic too, as I am planning to fly from Wisconsin to California in mid-January in my 70E. No real mountain flying experience, low-lander. Best times of day to fly? Follow mountain passes, or stay at high altitude? Best times of the day to fly?

[N201MKTurbo]

19 minutes ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

I would be interested in this topic too, as I am planning to fly from Wisconsin to California in mid-January in my 70E. No real mountain flying experience, low-lander. Best times of day to fly? Follow mountain passes, or stay at high altitude? Best times of the day to fly?

Where in Cali are you going?

 

[canamex]

@Stand_Tall I've flown my '67 F across the Rockies just once, from the Alberta side into Nelson and then to Victoria. Really majestic flying and worth it on a good weather day in the summer.

The advantage of the Canadian Rockies is that they're quite a bit lower than their cousins to the south so in a NA Mooney you can put mountain flying terrain clearances to use and create that margin of safety.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

35 minutes ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

I would be interested in this topic too, as I am planning to fly from Wisconsin to California in mid-January in my 70E. No real mountain flying experience, low-lander. Best times of day to fly? Follow mountain passes, or stay at high altitude? Best times of the day to fly?

It’s definitely doable but you’ll have to watch the fronts coming through.  Crossing is easier North of Colorado, then south into Utah and across to Reno, and then into central California.  Having oxygen is really nice.  You won’t need to cruise above 14,000, but you’ll definitely be above 10,000 for a long time.  If it’s really cold and/or the weather is bad, south of Colorado is a great option.  It might depend on where in California you’re headed.  If you stop overnight, make sure you have a preheat plan.  Take some winter survival gear because utah/nevada is remote!

[AndreiC]

My plan was to do this in three days, first day Madison, WI to Cheyenne, WY, second day to Salt Lake City, UT (where I would stay a couple of days to ski), and third day to my final destination in the Bay Area. (I'll be spending 4 months in Berkeley for work and would like to have my plane with me.)

Is there a simple option to get oxygen without installing a whole shebang? Disposable cans? Anything else?

Last year I had planned to go to Santa Fe, but in the end the weather was bad and had to fly commercially. If the weather on the route above does not work out, I can always try the southern route. Though it would be really nice to make it to SLC to ski with my son who will be there at the time.

[wombat]

You can buy a portable aerox system like one of these: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/aeroxsys.php?clickkey=4346

 

I've flown my E from the midwest to the coast in a single day.  It was a long summer day, so a 3 day trip sounds like a highly successful plan for the winter.   

Perhaps call the places you plan to overnight and make sure they've got a place for your plane that is inside in case a storm comes in?

[Ragsf15e]

12 minutes ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

My plan was to do this in three days, first day Madison, WI to Cheyenne, WY, second day to Salt Lake City, UT (where I would stay a couple of days to ski), and third day to my final destination in the Bay Area. (I'll be spending 4 months in Berkeley for work and would like to have my plane with me.)

Is there a simple option to get oxygen without installing a whole shebang? Disposable cans? Anything else?

Last year I had planned to go to Santa Fe, but in the end the weather was bad and had to fly commercially. If the weather on the route above does not work out, I can always try the southern route. Though it would be really nice to make it to SLC to ski with my son who will be there at the time.

Yes, an Aerox system with oxy saver cannulas like @wombat posted would be perfect. It lasts a long time. There are lots of places that can fill it, but you have to search around because some will charge $30 and some will charge 200. Highly portable and works well. Bring an oximeter from Amazon. They are cheap and work well.
 

I found Ogden Utah a reasonable stop with good fbo options.  Maybe hangar space for you?  Be careful of the busy airspace around Salt Lake Hill, Air Force Base, and all the military ranges.

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, Andrei Caldararu said:

I am planning to fly from Wisconsin to California in mid-January in my 70E.

Even if you're going to northern CA, you might look at the southern route.  This can keep you from having to go up high and keep you out of some of the passes that people go through in the summer where the winds can really be howling.  

Weather fronts are probably going to be your biggest issue, so be prepared to stay a couple of days enroute if things don't go as forecasted.   My plane is *finally* finishing up at the interior shop, so I'm looking at a late Dec or early Jan flight to the PNW (WA), so I'm not sure how many days it may take me and I'm also going to be looking at the southern route to at least get over to the west side of the Rockies.  Then I'll from there I should be able to make it home in a hop.

ADDED:  When are you going?  Maybe we'll make it a flight of two....  

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by PeteMc

[Jerry 5TJ]

I’ve flown all three of my Mooney planes coast to coast and over the Rockies.  Suggestions

• don't fly over the Rockies in IMC
• use oxygen and keep your O2 sat > 95%
• follow the major highways as a guide for lower terrain and more airports 
• mornings tend to be smoother 
• if the wind at ridge levels is > 30 knots, reconsider
• enjoy the spectacular views 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

You can buy a portable aerox system like one of these: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/aeroxsys.php?clickkey=4346

 

I've flown my E from the midwest to the coast in a single day.  It was a long summer day, so a 3 day trip sounds like a highly successful plan for the winter.   

Perhaps call the places you plan to overnight and make sure they've got a place for your plane that is inside in case a storm comes in?

Another good oxygen option (admittedly more $$) is the inogen g5 concentrator.  It’s almost $2k but doesn’t need refills and works great for 1 or even 2 people (with splitter tubes) at NA altitudes.

[Fly Boomer]

On 12/7/2023 at 3:08 PM, Stand_Tall said:

Hello all! I hope you are doing well, I'm currently working on my PPL in Canada and was wondering if any of you guys fly a C in the Vancouver area? I've been looking and wondering about the practicality of flying over the Rockies to do cross countries into the prairies. Thanks a lot!

Get your doc to write a prescription for oxygen.  A couple of the medical cylinders that are about 4 inches in diameter and a couple of feet tall, combined with a hose and cannula will do the job.  Check your oxygen saturation frequently.  If it's low, just open the valve further.  Fairly cheap to refill or exchange at any medical equipment provider.

[N201MKTurbo]

It sounds like your route is sound. Heading for Cheyenne is about the best place to cross the Rockies. I used to do it almost daily in a NA M20 F.

Just remember the weather through there can be bad in the winter. Planning your trip in advance, is a crap shoot this time of year.

It can also be beautiful…

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Another good oxygen option (admittedly more $$) is the inogen g5 concentrator.  It’s almost $2k but doesn’t need refills and works great for 1 or even 2 people (with splitter tubes) at NA altitudes.

Have you warn a Pulse Oximeter when you've used the concentrator?  I've seen various videos that say they really don't cut it as you go higher, but don't know anyone that's used one.

 

[Ragsf15e]

58 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Have you warn a Pulse Oximeter when you've used the concentrator?  I've seen various videos that say they really don't cut it as you go higher, but don't know anyone that's used one.

 

Yes for sure.  My wife and I both have pulse oximeters.  I dont think a concentrator is gonna work much above about 15k for me, but it’s been great from 9-12,500 since I’ve been using it.  Around 10k I’m at 90% or maybe even 88% without it, but Above 95% with it even on a low setting.  It has 6 settings, I haven’t had to use anything above 4 yet to keep myself above 95%.  Higher settings do use the battery faster for sure.  At 10500, my wife and I both used it for 3+ hours on setting 3 and were both upper 90s.  It’s nice for NA airplanes on long flights where you might normally feel fatigued, because that’s eliminated with a good O2 sat.

Its designed for 1 person, so 2 people isn’t perfect, but it’s been fine so far 10-12,000.  Powering it is difficult if you want to plug it into the cigar lighter because it draws like 120watts and mine is only 60, so I’ve been battery only which is about 4 hours max.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I fly a G model out of Utah and it works fine as long as you stay within the limitations of the aircraft.  For cross countries it’s common to fly at 10.5k and 12.5k in altitude because the terrain requires it.   Overall I try to limit flight over large mountainous areas with little population and instead try to stay over flatter more populated areas.   I’m fine flying over higher isolated ridgelines because you have good terrain right before and after it.  Below is my flight plan for a trip Friday for a funeral from KTVY (Tooele, Ut) to KPUW (Pullman Wa)  You’ll notice I am choosing not to fly over 200 continuous miles of Mountains and instead circling to the west.  I chose the gps waypoints because they route me between the higher peaks and away from some restricted airspace.  I should be able to complete this flight at 8500 feet.  So pretty low for western flying. 
 

My flight planning process starts with planning a direct flight and then I zoom in and start modifying the route to miss tall rocks and airspace I shouldn’t be flying through.  Once I find the lowest/flattest route I start working on what is the optimal altitude based on winds etc.  

Having a modern GPS navigator is very handy.  Having to navigate with VOR and /or pilotage only through the mountains would really limit you.  
 

There has already been a lot of good advice that I agree with. I’ll just add don’t fly at night either.  Sure, you could, and I do occasionally, but it does increase risk so why not just fly during the day?  Also, without a bright moon the mountains and desert are IFR when the sun goes down.   A guy killed himself and his family taking off out Moab Utah recently because he took off after dark with no moon.  It’s no joke.  So dark!  

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

but it’s been great from 9-12,500

Good to know.  I have a friend with a 212 Trophy that flies from NY to CA every year or two with a small portable tank that was looking for options.  I'll pass on the info. 

[Ragsf15e]

8 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I fly a G model out of Utah and it works fine as long as you stay within the limitations of the aircraft.  For cross countries it’s common to fly at 10.5k and 12.5k in altitude because the terrain requires it.   Overall I try to limit flight over large mountainous areas with little population and instead try to stay over flatter more populated areas.   I’m fine flying over higher isolated ridgelines because you have good terrain right before and after it.  Below is my flight plan for a trip Friday for a funeral from KTVY (Tooele, Ut) to KPUW (Pullman Wa)  You’ll notice I am choosing not to fly over 200 continuous miles of Mountains and instead circling to the west.  I chose the gps waypoints because they route me between the higher peaks and away from some restricted airspace.  I should be able to complete this flight at 8500 feet.  So pretty low for western flying. 
 

My flight planning process starts with planning a direct flight and then I zoom in and start modifying the route to miss tall rocks and airspace I shouldn’t be flying through.  Once I find the lowest/flattest route I start working on what is the optimal altitude based on winds etc.  

Having a modern GPS navigator is very handy.  Having to navigate with VOR and /or pilotage only through the mountains would really limit you.  
 

There has already been a lot of good advice that I agree with. I’ll just add don’t fly at night either.  Sure, you could, and I do occasionally, but it does increase risk so why not just fly during the day?  Also, without a bright moon the mountains and desert are IFR when the sun goes down.   A guy killed himself and his family taking off out Moab Utah recently because he took off after dark with no moon.  It’s no joke.  So dark!  

Exactly how I plan. Start with direct, then adjust just like you did.  I fly ogden to Spokane a lot and your route is almost exactly like mine.  I cut the edge of the valley maybe 10 miles north of Boise, but almost exactly the same.

Just be careful about the weather this time of year.  Lots of fog/freezing fog in kpuw.  Klws is almost always better if kpuw is bad.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ragsf15e

[Utah20Gflyer]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Exactly how I plan. Start with direct, then adjust just like you did.  I fly ogden to Spokane a lot and your route is almost exactly like mine.  I cut the edge of the valley maybe 10 miles north of Boise, but almost exactly the same.

Just be careful about the weather this time of year.  Lots of fog/freezing fog in kpuw.  Klws is almost always better if kpuw is bad.

Thanks for the heads up about Lewiston.  I’ve been watching weather closely and it is forecast to be good.   I have one moderate concern looking at the prog chart for Friday and was hoping as a pilot with more experience flying in that area you might have some useful input.   There is a warm/stationary front right over my destination.  The low is off to the east which I understand is where most of the weather will be.  What would you expect given your experience?  I’ve only flown up in this area once in June to Deerpark, Wa.  It’s very different weather than what we have here in Utah.  
 

Thanks, 

[Skates97]

15 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Have you warn a Pulse Oximeter when you've used the concentrator?  I've seen various videos that say they really don't cut it as you go higher, but don't know anyone that's used one.

14 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yes for sure.  My wife and I both have pulse oximeters.  I dont think a concentrator is gonna work much above about 15k for me, but it’s been great from 9-12,500 since I’ve been using it.  Around 10k I’m at 90% or maybe even 88% without it, but Above 95% with it even on a low setting.  It has 6 settings, I haven’t had to use anything above 4 yet to keep myself above 95%.  Higher settings do use the battery faster for sure.  At 10500, my wife and I both used it for 3+ hours on setting 3 and were both upper 90s.  It’s nice for NA airplanes on long flights where you might normally feel fatigued, because that’s eliminated with a good O2 sat.

Its designed for 1 person, so 2 people isn’t perfect, but it’s been fine so far 10-12,000.  Powering it is difficult if you want to plug it into the cigar lighter because it draws like 120watts and mine is only 60, so I’ve been battery only which is about 4 hours max.

We have one and fly at 9,500-11,500 with it and similar experiences. On a level 3 if I am solo it keeps my sats at 98-99%. Just to test it out I was at 9,500' with a pulse ox on and the O2 flowing and I was at 99%. I removed the cannula and kept the pulse ox on, within about 2-3 minutes I was in the low 90's, replaced the cannula and in less than a minute was back up to 98%.

When my wife and I are using the splitter I keep it at level 6 and plugged into a 12V that I had installed in the baggage area. After a 4 hour flight the battery was still full.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

We have one and fly at 9,500-11,500 with it and similar experiences. On a level 3 if I am solo it keeps my sats at 98-99%. Just to test it out I was at 9,500' with a pulse ox on and the O2 flowing and I was at 99%. I removed the cannula and kept the pulse ox on, within about 2-3 minutes I was in the low 90's, replaced the cannula and in less than a minute was back up to 98%.

When my wife and I are using the splitter I keep it at level 6 and plugged into a 12V that I had installed in the baggage area. After a 4 hour flight the battery was still full.

12v in the baggage, solid idea!

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Thanks for the heads up about Lewiston.  I’ve been watching weather closely and it is forecast to be good.   I have one moderate concern looking at the prog chart for Friday and was hoping as a pilot with more experience flying in that area you might have some useful input.   There is a warm/stationary front right over my destination.  The low is off to the east which I understand is where most of the weather will be.  What would you expect given your experience?  I’ve only flown up in this area once in June to Deerpark, Wa.  It’s very different weather than what we have here in Utah.  
 

Thanks, 

Yes, the winter weather up here has taken me a long time to figure out as well.  If you’re flying Friday afternoon, you probably have a good chance to be vfr the whole way no problem.  When the winter weather here is “partly cloudy”, that means broken at 1000’ (or less) though.  The temp and dew point are so close together and there’s no energy in the low sun that fog and low stratus are the norm during “good weather”.  
Depending on lots of random factors, there’s sometimes light rime in there too so I avoid it unless I get a pirep of negative icing.  On the plus side, any layer will likely be only a 1000’ thick and beautiful on top.

So I don’t think you’ll know 100% until the morning of, klws is a good backup, there’s not much between klws and boise, and Salt Lake and Seattle centers have poor-ish radio coverage between there too (and it’s where the center border is).  That said, it’s beautiful.  Land before 4pm because it gets dark fast and kpuw is in a bit of a bowl of rolling “paluse”.

[larryb]

I like to cross through Salt Lake City, Rock Springs, KRKS, and Casper WY, KCPR. Terrain is relatively flat.

[Utah20Gflyer]

4 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yes, the winter weather up here has taken me a long time to figure out as well.  If you’re flying Friday afternoon, you probably have a good chance to be vfr the whole way no problem.  When the winter weather here is “partly cloudy”, that means broken at 1000’ (or less) though.  The temp and dew point are so close together and there’s no energy in the low sun that fog and low stratus are the norm during “good weather”.  
Depending on lots of random factors, there’s sometimes light rime in there too so I avoid it unless I get a pirep of negative icing.  On the plus side, any layer will likely be only a 1000’ thick and beautiful on top.

So I don’t think you’ll know 100% until the morning of, klws is a good backup, there’s not much between klws and boise, and Salt Lake and Seattle centers have poor-ish radio coverage between there too (and it’s where the center border is).  That said, it’s beautiful.  Land before 4pm because it gets dark fast and kpuw is in a bit of a bowl of rolling “paluse”.

Thanks, I appreciate the intel!