Operating an F off a dirt strip is this a horrible idea?, just bought a home with a dirt strip.

[Utah20Gflyer]

If you scrape high spots and deposit the material into low areas you are going to end up with soft spots.  You are going to need a water truck and a compactor to firm up that material.   I’d suggest finding a contractor that does road work in the area to show you what needs to be done and how to do it.  He should be familiar with the local soils and what affordable options might be available locally.  
 

Getting drainage correct is going to be really important to keep the runway in good shape and usable much sooner after rain.   This should be priority #1 followed by getting it smoothed out  and then improving the surface.   
 

a light application of gravel or RAP (recycled asphalt pavement) compacted into the dirt could help stabilize the runway surface.  It will still be a dirt runway still but may be firmer and be more tolerant of water.  How well this will work though depends on the soil type so ask the road contractor what works in that area.  
 

Congratulations on your private runway.  Once it’s all squared away you can host a Mooney fly in!  

[Utah20Gflyer]

I realized after my last post that my advice was jumping the gun a bit.

I would recommend as the first step hiring an engineer to survey the runways and give you a design to follow.  If you want a good result you want to know exactly what you are working toward.   The surveyor will tell you where to cut and fill to end up with a nice straight and level runway with the proper drainage.  Maybe this step has already been done but if not then I’d start there. 

[EricJ]

I've suspected it's a bit of work to keep the desert dirt strips in decent shape, given the number of them that go into disuse.  

Here's two in AZ that kind of remind me of the pics.    MoTown holds an event once a year that people fly in to, and the other is just a BLM strip.   You can see at the BLM strip that there are some serious ruts and washes on the un-bladed part.
 

 

 

[Pinecone]

11 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I almost wonder if it would be worth paving the ends?  or is that silly to have hard transitions like that.  

The airport I did my private at had a grass runway that crossed the paved runway.  It worked fine.   You just have to make sure that the transition is a NOT hole.

[bcg]

That's what it's got now, sticky sponge.  Paving would be around 1.5M for both runways so that's not in the foreseeable cards.  

How'd you come up with that number? I could see it for concrete but, you don't need to do concrete, it would be complete overkill for anything that can land in the space you have.

Asphalt shouldn't be anywhere near that, I came up with $35,000 to have a 40' x 2800' strip paved with asphalt after I did the prep work. Chipseal would be even less. If you have to hire prep work, add maybe $20,000 but if it's already been used as a strip, prep should be really minimal, just running a grader over the dirt and rolling it should be plenty.

Personally, I'd get recycled asphalt millings, lay down 2-3" and run a vibratory roller over it on a hot day. Even better would be a steam roller but the sun will do the job over time if it's just rolled. I recently got asphalt millings for $11/ton.

If the soil is well compacted and you compact the millings really well, I would expect it to hold up fine for a Mooney. I run an 11,000 pound forklift over the millings around my shop and it leaves about a 1/8" depression. It's only been down a few months and gets harder the more I drive on it, I expect that in a year or so, it won't even leave that much of a depression.

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[Fly Boomer]

19 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

This came with the property, satellite shows it moved around last in 2019 or 2020 it needs a ton of work and leaks so much hydraulic fluid it may oil the runway itself.  I plan to get it going eventually.   

That’s a beauty if you can get it going.

[OneSaltyItalian]

You could also consider starting a YouTube channel on all of these issues/projects/fun you're going to have renovating this stuff. Could be some profit involved if you're handy with a video editor at all! Check out "Renovating an Abandoned Mansion" by Demolition Ranch on YouTube. I would wager he paid for that house on views alone.

I used to do video editing, but I'm not a pro by any means. Just something I thought of when you were talking about all the work that needs to be done!

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[A64Pilot]

On 7/25/2023 at 9:14 PM, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I wonder if paint protection film under the wing in line with the tire would be in order?  The runway has very few rocks mostly silty soft dirt.  The previous owner who passed away flew a 1947 Bonanza and an Aercoup off the strip.  I will do "rock patrol" to thin the rocks on a regular basis.  If the mooney shows signs of getting beat up I'll save my money and swap her out.  It would be sad for sure.  I bought her because I wanted to actually go places and that she does well.  She also seems to be pretty good on cross winds, I fly on days my neighbors don't due to wind and it always feels pretty safe.  Perhaps the wing loading is higher.  

When I bought the Maule it had a clear type of thick softer plastic tape on the struts, leading edge of the wings, landing gear and elevator, over time the sun deteriorated that tape, turned it gummy and some kind of black mold grew in it. It came out of Florida, a Company that grew oranges owned it and a Cessna Conquest. I think the Maule was used to visit the farms landing on dirt roads mostly sand I’d bet.

It could NOT be removed, I had to strip and repaint everything, got rid of it on the elevator when the airplane was recovered, had the struts powder coated, stripped the wings leading edge to install VG’s etc.

I assume some tapes / films are better than others, but don’t know, but I’d do my homework and not save money, buy the good stuff which I think may be made by 3M?

Wing loading on a Mooney is actually pretty low, if your doing better in crosswinds than others it’s either from being better at them or from not being as worried because a Mooney is a wonderful aircraft, but crosswinds aren’t one of its better attributes in my opinion. It could use more rudder I think and more wing ground clearance for really strong cross winds, but I don’t do those anymore I’m a fair weather flier now.

I believe if you look up the word compromise in the dictionary you may see a picture of an airplane, Mooney’s are optimized for high cruise speeds and give up other things for that.

If your where I think you are, there are a whole lot of strips out there many on Federal land and a Maule is at home in those conditions, so it depends I think on the mission as always, if the only dirt you plan on operating on is your own strip, well that’s a lot different than if you plan to fly and visit those other strips.

My M6-235 Maule on 8.5 tires was only 20 kts slower than my J model, and that sounds like a lot but it’s really not, in fact as I’m older now and not usually in a hurry I fly the Mooney at 135 kts and enjoy the lower fuel burn, which was the Maule’s cruise speed. It depends I guess on if you’re the type that has to fly wide open all the time or not. When I had the 210 I always left the throttle wide open until it came time to land, but that was a while ago.

I really think taking a die grinder with a course type of round bit and opening up the grooves on a tire so that instead of being U shaped they are more of a V shape will keep them from picking up rocks. If you look at a tire when the groove gets toward the bottom the aircraft weight squeezes the groove together, so the groove grabs onto a rock that then gets slung when the groove opens up when the weight comes off of the tire, open the groove up enough and it won’t pick up rocks.

Goodyears and I guess maybe Michelins have two grooves and Air Tracs and others 5?

Desser has 2 groove retreads that I think are excellent tires, but I’d still open up the grooves

https://shop.desser.com/5.00x5-6-ply-retread-elite-premium-2-groove/ecomm-product-detail/324268/

Edited July 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

Get a decent 50 HP diesel tractor, it’s big enough to do the job, but don’t get stuck on a 50 HP a lot of the times you can get a better deal on a 90 to 125 HP one.

50 seems to be sought after for hobby farmers.

I live on a grass strip, we roll it with what is I think some kind of old steel tubular tank, maybe an old propane tank, filled with concrete. Takeaway is I think any kind of strip benefits from some kind of maintenance.

I think though if it’s clay based, is there Caliche there? If so you may be best to just drag it every now and again with chain link with some weight on it and leave it alone.

Without having seen it, my gut goes towards basically leaving it alone, but with a good tractor and a box blade you may be able to make improvements or you may do more harm by bringing up rocks that weren’t loose, experiment on the road to the house and see.

Somebody around there has already been through all this and knows the right answer, maybe try meeting your neighbors, even if they are 100 miles away.

Maybe you can find Sky King, I think he was out that way  

Edited July 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

On 7/25/2023 at 7:05 PM, Andy95W said:

I’ve been using the McFarlane PropGuard for over 25 years.  I’ve never had a problem with it if applied properly.

And with the nicks and cuts it accumulates over time, I’m incredibly happy I didn’t get that damage to my prop blades.

EDIT- a friend tried it on his Hartzell scimitar prop and it didn’t do as well.  The curvature on the leading edge was too great.  On my standard Hartzell it stays put nicely.

I have the regular Hartzell, I'm going to give the PropGuard a try.  It has to slow down leading edge erosion.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:10 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

If you scrape high spots and deposit the material into low areas you are going to end up with soft spots.  You are going to need a water truck and a compactor to firm up that material.   I’d suggest finding a contractor that does road work in the area to show you what needs to be done and how to do it.  He should be familiar with the local soils and what affordable options might be available locally.  
 

Getting drainage correct is going to be really important to keep the runway in good shape and usable much sooner after rain.   This should be priority #1 followed by getting it smoothed out  and then improving the surface.   
 

a light application of gravel or RAP (recycled asphalt pavement) compacted into the dirt could help stabilize the runway surface.  It will still be a dirt runway still but may be firmer and be more tolerant of water.  How well this will work though depends on the soil type so ask the road contractor what works in that area.  
 

Congratulations on your private runway.  Once it’s all squared away you can host a Mooney fly in!  

I agree, I may hire a local guy to work the runway first.  I will want to do the maintenance myself eventually.  The drainage doesn't look too bad, looks like it needs a culvert pipe where the two runways cross.  I've never heard of using RAP before, I've got some youtubing to do!  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:31 PM, EricJ said:

I've suspected it's a bit of work to keep the desert dirt strips in decent shape, given the number of them that go into disuse.  

Here's two in AZ that kind of remind me of the pics.    MoTown holds an event once a year that people fly in to, and the other is just a BLM strip.   You can see at the BLM strip that there are some serious ruts and washes on the un-bladed part.
 

 

 

My strips look almost exactly like that 5AZ6, mine are not quite in as good of shape but they haven't been maintained in 4+ years.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

On 7/26/2023 at 3:13 AM, M20Doc said:

See if you can find a sizeable piece of 8’ chain link fence, folded to 3-4 layers(for weight) and tow it behind your truck 

I may try this first, I'm a cheap SOB so any Home Depot solutions I can try first I'm going to.  If it doesn't work the chicken coup could use some more chain link to keep the coyotes out. 

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:19 AM, bcg said:

How'd you come up with that number? I could see it for concrete but, you don't need to do concrete, it would be complete overkill for anything that can land in the space you have.

Asphalt shouldn't be anywhere near that, I came up with $35,000 to have a 40' x 2800' strip paved with asphalt after I did the prep work. Chipseal would be even less. If you have to hire prep work, add maybe $20,000 but if it's already been used as a strip, prep should be really minimal, just running a grader over the dirt and rolling it should be plenty.

Personally, I'd get recycled asphalt millings, lay down 2-3" and run a vibratory roller over it on a hot day. Even better would be a steam roller but the sun will do the job over time if it's just rolled. I recently got asphalt millings for $11/ton.

If the soil is well compacted and you compact the millings really well, I would expect it to hold up fine for a Mooney. I run an 11,000 pound forklift over the millings around my shop and it leaves about a 1/8" depression. It's only been down a few months and gets harder the more I drive on it, I expect that in a year or so, it won't even leave that much of a depression.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

 

I'm going to look into these options.  That number I got off google for cost to pave a road per mile but that was probably GOV numbers lol!  Costs them 1M to install a toilet after 4 years and 97 meetings.  I wasn't aware asphalt millings bonded back together over time.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

On 7/26/2023 at 6:50 PM, OneSaltyItalian said:

You could also consider starting a YouTube channel on all of these issues/projects/fun you're going to have renovating this stuff. Could be some profit involved if you're handy with a video editor at all! Check out "Renovating an Abandoned Mansion" by Demolition Ranch on YouTube. I would wager he paid for that house on views alone.

I used to do video editing, but I'm not a pro by any means. Just something I thought of when you were talking about all the work that needs to be done!

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 

LOL that's funny you should say that!  @herbomatic on youtube is my channel.  I plan to continue my channel when I finish selling my business, the sale is taking all my time at the moment.  I hope it works out, the house is off-grid and since it needed fixing up and wasn't financeable the wife and I scraped up the money to buy her.  If the Youtube can make 50k a year that should be good with no bills.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

When I bought the Maule it had a clear type of thick softer plastic tape on the struts, leading edge of the wings, landing gear and elevator, over time the sun deteriorated that tape, turned it gummy and some kind of black mold grew in it. It came out of Florida, a Company that grew oranges owned it and a Cessna Conquest. I think the Maule was used to visit the farms landing on dirt roads mostly sand I’d bet.

It could NOT be removed, I had to strip and repaint everything, got rid of it on the elevator when the airplane was recovered, had the struts powder coated, stripped the wings leading edge to install VG’s etc.

I assume some tapes / films are better than others, but don’t know, but I’d do my homework and not save money, buy the good stuff which I think may be made by 3M?

Wing loading on a Mooney is actually pretty low, if your doing better in crosswinds than others it’s either from being better at them or from not being as worried because a Mooney is a wonderful aircraft, but crosswinds aren’t one of its better attributes in my opinion. It could use more rudder I think and more wing ground clearance for really strong cross winds, but I don’t do those anymore I’m a fair weather flier now.

I believe if you look up the word compromise in the dictionary you may see a picture of an airplane, Mooney’s are optimized for high cruise speeds and give up other things for that.

If your where I think you are, there are a whole lot of strips out there many on Federal land and a Maule is at home in those conditions, so it depends I think on the mission as always, if the only dirt you plan on operating on is your own strip, well that’s a lot different than if you plan to fly and visit those other strips.

My M6-235 Maule on 8.5 tires was only 20 kts slower than my J model, and that sounds like a lot but it’s really not, in fact as I’m older now and not usually in a hurry I fly the Mooney at 135 kts and enjoy the lower fuel burn, which was the Maule’s cruise speed. It depends I guess on if you’re the type that has to fly wide open all the time or not. When I had the 210 I always left the throttle wide open until it came time to land, but that was a while ago.

I really think taking a die grinder with a course type of round bit and opening up the grooves on a tire so that instead of being U shaped they are more of a V shape will keep them from picking up rocks. If you look at a tire when the groove gets toward the bottom the aircraft weight squeezes the groove together, so the groove grabs onto a rock that then gets slung when the groove opens up when the weight comes off of the tire, open the groove up enough and it won’t pick up rocks.

Goodyears and I guess maybe Michelins have two grooves and Air Tracs and others 5?

Desser has 2 groove retreads that I think are excellent tires, but I’d still open up the grooves

https://shop.desser.com/5.00x5-6-ply-retread-elite-premium-2-groove/ecomm-product-detail/324268/

I never thought about the Idea of purchasing tires with fewer grooves, it's one of those DUH moments after you mentioned it.  I will look out for that when I buy them in the future.  Opening the treads, making them wide and shallow or tapering the shoulders would definitely reduce the rock thawing ability.  I think my new tires have 4 grooves.  I may look into a Bearhawk, C180/185, or Maule in the future. I would like to explore some strips but I'm convinced the Mooney is the traveler.  The C185 would probably be a good all-rounder but boy are they pricey!  

I bet it's necessary to replace the protection strips once in awhile so they don't get goopy or permanent.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

34 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Get a decent 50 HP diesel tractor, it’s big enough to do the job, but don’t get stuck on a 50 HP a lot of the times you can get a better deal on a 90 to 125 HP one.

50 seems to be sought after for hobby farmers.

I live on a grass strip, we roll it with what is I think some kind of old steel tubular tank, maybe an old propane tank, filled with concrete. Takeaway is I think any kind of strip benefits from some kind of maintenance.

I think though if it’s clay based, is there Caliche there? If so you may be best to just drag it every now and again with chain link with some weight on it and leave it alone.

Without having seen it, my gut goes towards basically leaving it alone, but with a good tractor and a box blade you may be able to make improvements or you may do more harm by bringing up rocks that weren’t loose, experiment on the road to the house and see.

Somebody around there has already been through all this and knows the right answer, maybe try meeting your neighbors, even if they are 100 miles away.

Maybe you can find Sky King, I think he was out that way  

That's exactly the size I've been eyeing.  50 is probably my minimum since I need to do long amounts of dragging.  For 4k more you get a cab with AC and heat, I figure I'll splurge for since if the wind is at your back the dust from the box blade or plane will come back to blanket you.  I just don't know if it's clay its a fine fine power on top.

Experimenting on the driveway and the really bad road to the house was my idea to get a handle on it too!  I can't make the road to the house any worse it's pretty washed out.  I see a ton of airstrips out there I should go leave a note on one of their gates.  For a six pack I bet I can save a few years of learning.  

[bcg]

I'm going to look into these options.  That number I got off google for cost to pave a road per mile but that was probably GOV numbers lol!  Costs them 1M to install a toilet after 4 years and 97 meetings.  I wasn't aware asphalt millings bonded back together over time.  

It won't turn back into asphalt but, it's definitely not gravel/dirt. I'm really happy with how mine is sticking together.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[A64Pilot]

C-180’s and 185’s are OLD and sought after, the 180 in particular has been THE bush plane in AK and elsewhere since I was a little boy, being both old and sought after as bush planes will make a cherry one very expensive and affordable ones likely have serious issues, buyer beware.

But if you have the cash a good 180 or 185 is nice, I didn’t have the cash. 20 years ago a good Maule was literally half the price of a good 185.

Maules are and have always been cheap airplanes and there are many that are much newer than 180’s etc. Maule is pretty capable when expressed as a percent of cruise speed a Maule has the lowest stall speed and highest cruise of any Certified GA aircraft. The big motor ones will cruise at 135 kts, and except for one model that’s 235 HP out of a 540, there is one that’s a 260, but the airplane is heavier so you don’t get anything from the extra HP, either carbureted or I/O, if you think it may end up on floats go for the carb, otherwise the I/O. The carb can run car gas legally with an STC, the I/O cannot. That may be an issue worth considering.

Either way extracting a max of 235 HP out of a 540 means it’s never run hard, the redline on the I/O is 2400 RPM, so with a redline of 2400 what that means is they easily go WAY beyond TBO, if the cam lasts that is. It is a Lycoming.

Older Maules had Franklins and those are hot rods as they were helicopter engines, but parts are tough to find, there is even a 6 cyl Continental a 210 I think? But the 540 lycoming is better, if your a mountain guy there was even a turbo Maule, but not very many and I think it had an unusual engine

Oh and on edit, Cessna’s are just about the most docile and forgiving aircraft there are. Maule’s not so much, they will lull you into believing they are like a Cessna, then they will bite, A Maule’s performance envelope is greater than a Cessna, the difference is the Cessna if pushed out if it’s envelope is forgiving, a Maule isn’t. I believe the accident rate particularly on landing bears that out.

Before you seriously consider buying anything talk to your insurance guy first, he or she may have an impact on what you want to buy.

Edited July 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

24 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Experimenting on the driveway and the really bad road to the house was my idea to get a handle on it too!  I can't make the road to the house any worse it's pretty washed out.  I see a ton of airstrips out there I should go leave a note on one of their gates.  For a six pack I bet I can save a few years of learning.  

I think that’s your best bet, I think just about everything that can be thought of  has been tried and collectively they have come up with all the answers your after.

Edited July 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Hank]

56 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I may try this first, I'm a cheap SOB so any Home Depot solutions I can try first I'm going to.  If it doesn't work the chicken coup could use some more chain link to keep the coyotes out. 

Old tires make good weights, and are easy to move around because they roll. Go for 18-wheeler tires, or tractor tires, they're heavier, and cast-offs are fairly cheap. 

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

I'm going to look into these options.  That number I got off google for cost to pave a road per mile but that was probably GOV numbers lol! 

Building a road is a lot more involved than a runway.  It has to deal with heavy trucks and higher usage.  It will have a thick gravel layer under the paving.  And many inches of asphault. 

A private runway should be more like a driveway (not exactly, but a lot less work than a public road).

[A64Pilot]

RE pavement at the beginning, that’s extremely common on Crop Duster strips and really does seem to help, it’s gets you up to speed before hitting dirt, with forward speed it seems the prop doesn’t suck up dirt and rocks like it does to start with, coming off of grass I’m not at full throttle until about 40 kts trying to cut down on prop erosion, it also gives you a clean spot for run-up, and likely shortens takeoff roll, but it looks like you have plenty of runway.

Crop Dusters are HEAVY and some pavement really helps before they hit the dirt because they are generating some lift and accelerating faster, not sure it would make that much difference for a Mooney though.

Edited July 31, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

12 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

RE pavement at the beginning, that’s extremely common on Crop Duster strips and really does seem to help, it’s gets you up to speed before hitting dirt, with forward speed it seems the prop doesn’t suck up dirt and rocks like it does to start with, coming off of grass I’m not at full throttle until about 40 kts trying to cut down on prop erosion, it also gives you a clean spot for run-up, and likely shortens takeoff roll, but it looks like you have plenty of runway.

Crop Dusters are HEAVY and some pavement really helps before they hit the dirt because they are generating some lift and accelerating faster, not sure it would make that much difference for a Mooney though.

I like this Idea, maybe 500ft on each end to start with, perhaps more when I can afford it.  Ground roll should be around the 1000' at sea level so figure 1300' maybe more for dirt.  500 head start should help her along nicely.  I think you're right about prop erosion, if I do a short field take off full power feet on brakes the prop paint really pays for it even on pavement.  It's dusty in AZ.  

[ShuRugal]

One thing to watch out for with paved ends: the transition from pavement to dirt will erode rapidly and dramatically compared to the rest of the dirt, especially when it rains. You'll need to regularly inspect and repair those transitions, if you go that route

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