Well that fell through.

[wombat]

12 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

Well, maybe you don't go to some big shops. You would be amazed at what goes on out there.

They can't "ground" your plane.  Period, full stop, end of message.

 

But if they tell you about something that shows you that your airplane is not airworthy and then you decide to fly it, that's ALL on you.   And also, that would probably indicate that you flew it there in an un-airworthy condition.    That is probably on you too.

[wombat]

1 minute ago, rickseeman said:

Legality means nothing. He said this plane ain't leaving here unless you give me $2,500 for this Beech part because the fuel flow gauge on your Bonanza didn't work when we tried it (it was intermittent) and it has to work to be legal because it's a Part 23 airplane. We might be liable if something happened. This crap goes on everyday.

You can take your plane and go, as long as you have paid the shop what you owe them.    Now what you do with it when you 'go' is a different story.   You might not fly it away.  You might want to get a second opinion on the instrument.   

And your liability is your own concern, not the shop's.

[Tom 4536]

I plan to sell my 231 as soon as it cools off here in Tucson. I will be very fussy as to whom gets to work on my plane for the inspection. It took a while to find someone I trust to work on my plane. One problem with flying the plane somewhere is finding transportation back home while the preflight is being done.

[rickseeman]

6 minutes ago, wombat said:

They can't "ground" your plane.  Period, full stop, end of message.

But if they tell you about something that shows you that your airplane is not airworthy and then you decide to fly it, that's ALL on you.   And also, that would probably indicate that you flew it there in an un-airworthy condition.    That is probably on you too.

Perhaps you didn't read what he said. Did he not explain it well enough for you? Period, full stop, end of message.

And if I was flying an unairworthy airplane because the digital fuel flow was intermittent (the analog worked fine) maybe I'm just a bad, irresponsible person. My other 4 Bonanzas didn't even have digital fuel flow.

[ArtVandelay]

I plan to sell my 231 as soon as it cools off here in Tucson. I will be very fussy as to whom gets to work on my plane for the inspection. It took a while to find someone I trust to work on my plane. One problem with flying the plane somewhere is finding transportation back home while the preflight is being done.

You fly it home, prebuy AP needs to return to original condition.

[Tom 4536]

10 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

You fly it home, prebuy AP needs to return to original condition.

Yes, the prebuy AP NEEDS to return the plane to original condition, but WILL he? There are lots of posts here where the plane was worse after maintenance than before.

[T. Peterson]

Wow, what a headache! I bought my plane through Jimmy G., and when it comes time to sell I will sell through him. Seems to me the commission is well worth the aggravation!!

[wombat]

30 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

Perhaps you didn't read what he said. Did he not explain it well enough for you? Period, full stop, end of message.

And if I was flying an unairworthy airplane because the digital fuel flow was intermittent (the analog worked fine) maybe I'm just a bad, irresponsible person. My other 4 Bonanzas didn't even have digital fuel flow.

Oh, I did read his whole message.   And yours.  I was quoting you because you implied that 'big shops' can ground your airplane, which they can't.   Legality is not 'nothing' it's everything.

 

Also, do you really want to write on on a public forum that you are knowingly violating FAA regulations?

[wombat]

FYI, on my most recent aircraft purchase the initial offer included a requirement for them to let me take the plane (via them flying it, or a ferry pilot) at my expense to a nearby shop for an inspection.  I also included a requirement for me to take a flight in the plane, and it worked out great for one of the sellers to fly the plane with me in it to the shop I chose.   I then took the seller back ($150 uber ride!) to his home airport.

There might someday be an aircraft for sale where I don't require that, but this plane was not that one.  And for @Mcstealth, this plane was not that one either.    

 

Good luck, keep looking.   There are lots of planes out there.

[rickseeman]

43 minutes ago, wombat said:

Oh, I did read his whole message.   And yours.  I was quoting you because you implied that 'big shops' can ground your airplane, which they can't.   Legality is not 'nothing' it's everything.

And what would you have done when he told you that you aren't leaving unless you give him $2,500? 

[McMooney]

when i purchased my plane, i just found a good shop on field totally unrelated to the seller.  gave them a list to check for corrosion, everywhere, including the tube sbs and check the engine and gear.  

then i had that same shop annual it after they checked my major items.

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

And what would you have done when he told you that you aren't leaving unless you give him $2,500? 

Prebuy is solely the buyer’s responsibility, all fees should be paid by the buyer and I would get that in writing along with acknowledgment this isn’t a inspection, just a evaluation of value of the plane and the plane would be returned to original condition.

[wombat]

@rickseeman

Did he say you personally were not leaving?    If so, call 911 because that's kidnapping.

More likely, he was saying you were not taking the plane.    

Then the question is if you owe him that money. 

If he purchased parts and/or performed labor on your aircraft that you approved, then you owe him the money and he might have a legal right to not let you take the plane.   I doubt it, probably all he has a right to do is to put a lien on it.  But I am not a lawyer and I don't know what jurisdiction this happened in.

If the mechanic is just saying "I think the aircraft is un-airworthy and you need $2,500 of parts/labor done before the airplane is airworthy." you can say "Thank you for your thoughts on this.   I'm taking my airplane and departing your shop.     I've done this before.  It burns bridges, but sometimes it's worth it.

[rickseeman]

45 minutes ago, wombat said:

Also, do you really want to write on on a public forum that you are knowingly violating FAA regulations?

I will be glad to take a poly graph test asking me if I knew that flying the airplane, because the digital fuel flow was intermittent, was in violation of FAA regulations. It was almost impossible to even find the digital fuel flow. The only place it was listed was deep into the 530. The analog gauge in the panel worked fine. That's all I ever used. For some reason you're trying to make me out as the heavy on this thread. My only reason for posting was to add why some people are uncomfortable taking their airplane to an unknown shop and for some strange reason you're going after me saying I'm knowingly violating FAA regulations. WOW.

[ArtVandelay]

Yes, the prebuy AP NEEDS to return the plane to original condition, but WILL he? There are lots of posts here where the plane was worse after maintenance than before.

Well, that’s a good point. I definitely would limit the surgery (borescope cylinders is fine, but no removal of cylinders to inspect the internals). If I limit just inspection plates, spark plugs, and some interior pieces, then I could put it back together myself if needed.

[wombat]

One thing I think we are kind of dancing around here is this:  Sometimes mechanics are actually finding conditions about the planes that do show them to be unairworthy.    And as an aircraft owner and particularly as someone who doesn't want to be an owner of that aircraft any more, it's kind of scary to think that an expensive issue may be discovered at an airport where you don't have your normal support network.    You then have to decide if you want to make the airplane airworthy again, and if so, how to do it.

If a mechanic CREATES an airworthiness issue by breaking something or installing something incorrectly, they are liable for that.   Might be challenging to prove that the mechanic caused it, which is its own issue.

 

Reminds me of when a Army National Guard unit I was a member of was getting ready to deploy...   In one of the health screenings, one of the members was discovered to have cancer.   So the Army discharged him from active duty.     Everybody screamed how it wasn't fair, he just quit his job for this deployment, now he's got cancer, and no health insurance and the government was just going to let him die.        The thing is, the health screening didn't give him cancer, it discovered that he already had cancer.  The health screening was there to protect the government's interest in exactly this sort of case.

[wombat]

6 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

I will be glad to take a poly graph test asking me if I knew that flying the airplane, because the digital fuel flow was intermittent, was in violation of FAA regulations. It was almost impossible to even find the digital fuel flow. The only place it was listed was deep into the 530. The analog gauge in the panel worked fine. That's all I ever used. For some reason you're trying to make me out as the heavy on this thread. My only reason for posting was to add why some people are uncomfortable taking their airplane to an unknown shop and for some strange reason you're going after me saying I'm knowingly violating FAA regulations. WOW.

It's not about how hard it is to find, it's about if you can legally fly it with the instrument periodically inoperative.   I've got no idea if it's required for your aircraft and your operations.    But you did say "and it has to work to be legal because it's a Part 23 airplane" ....    Is 'intermittent' operation 'working' ?   No idea.   Don't know, don't wanna know. My point is that you get to make that decision, not the A&P.

[wombat]

@ArtVandelay, it's a  good point that an inspection might cause damage.    I would assume that the A&P is liable for any damage they cause.   If they simply discover a condition though, that's good negotiation fodder for the buyer and exactly the sort of thing a prebuy is for.

[Tom 4536]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Well, that’s a good point. I definitely would limit the surgery (borescope cylinders is fine, but no removal of cylinders to inspect the internals). If I limit just inspection plates, spark plugs, and some interior pieces, then I could put it back together myself if needed.

Sounds fair. Do you feel a prebuy should include removing the seats and side panels to inspect for corrosion. I am a bit hesitant about having the interior taken apart but I'm just curious how others feel about this.

[KSMooniac]

20 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

As always the PPI debate is interesting.  I’ve got several on the go at the moment.  
<snip>

Non of these seem as scary as what I read here regularly.

I think that is a testament to you and your way of conducting business.  You're quite reasonable (I'm comfortable in guessing from afar after seeing your participation here for years!) and I have no doubt you attract, but more importantly, retain reasonable customers.  We're lucky to have you in our little corner of the industry.

I've been a victim of an unscrupulous shop for a simple 24 mo IFR cert, and I've read quite a few horror stories over the years on various forums.  I'm not sure how I would sell my plane if I ever do... I'm not trying to hide anything, but I would sure want to restrict who and where it might go for a PPI.  I was fortunate that my local FBO (the seller) let me take mine to Maxwell (300+ NM away) with their sales guy for the day for only the cost of fuel and the inspection.  They knew they had a good plane, though.  I'm sure every situation is unique...

[Utah20Gflyer]

If there was more trust in the aviation community this question we are discussing wouldn’t be nearly so difficult.  Unfortunately a lot of people have had plenty of experiences that make them distrustful.  
 

For someone who has maintained their aircraft well and knows what they have,  it doesn’t seem like a great idea to take risks so a buyer will feel good about buying your airplane.  Someone is likely to come along and buy it anyway.  Maybe if it switches to a buyers market that will change.  Having been a buyer a couple years ago I get the desire to try to determine the nature of the item you are purchasing, but from an owner’s perspective I just see all sorts of complications with someone you don’t know taking your plane somewhere and some other stranger taking stuff apart.  It just doesn’t sit well.  
 

Personally I feel like I’d need to be present for the PPI to oversee what’s being done and making sure everything goes back together correctly.
 

  I have a good mechanic who I know well and even when he is working on my plane I’m around a lot looking at what’s going on, talking about what we are doing etc.  I’m not there always but I’m there a lot.   Until money and title changes hands I have to be involved because it’s MY plane. 

[EricJ]

35 minutes ago, wombat said:

@ArtVandelay, it's a  good point that an inspection might cause damage.    I would assume that the A&P is liable for any damage they cause.   If they simply discover a condition though, that's good negotiation fodder for the buyer and exactly the sort of thing a prebuy is for.

Like a lot of things, though, sometimes the issue may not turn up until later, after it has left the shop.   It just gets sticky and it's difficult to mitigate the risk.

29 minutes ago, Tom 4536 said:

Sounds fair. Do you feel a prebuy should include removing the seats and side panels to inspect for corrosion. I am a bit hesitant about having the interior taken apart but I'm just curious how others feel about this.

A common issue with Mooneys is corrosion on the spars and the steel tube frame.    The best way to get a look at critical areas of those is to remove the rear seats and the side panels.   It is possible to do cursory inspections without doing that, but removing the seats and side panels isn't very invasive and is unlikely to affect safety issues like control systems or the engine performance.

[Yetti]

42 minutes ago, Tom 4536 said:

Sounds fair. Do you feel a prebuy should include removing the seats and side panels to inspect for corrosion. I am a bit hesitant about having the interior taken apart but I'm just curious how others feel about this.

If you buy your borescope you can use it to inspect the tubes without pulling seats.    One of the problems with going to a far shop is the plane gets put in the "unknown" status.   You don't know what they touched and you don't know what has been put back together wrong.   Any AP has  access to the AD list since it is an FAA thing.   You can even download it from the FAA.   My IA does an AD list for the annual.

[DCarlton]

34 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Like a lot of things, though, sometimes the issue may not turn up until later, after it has left the shop.   It just gets sticky and it's difficult to mitigate the risk.

A common issue with Mooneys is corrosion on the spars and the steel tube frame.    The best way to get a look at critical areas of those is to remove the rear seats and the side panels.   It is possible to do cursory inspections without doing that, but removing the seats and side panels isn't very invasive and is unlikely to affect safety issues like control systems or the engine performance.

I cry now when I remove my seats or side panels....  Not Again ?$%^&*

BTW, why not sell concurrent with your next annual inspection.  The thing is taken apart anyway.  Best time to get involved and do a pre-buy.  They happen EVERY year.  

[201Steve]

I went thru this exact scenario… seller was a real PITA. After calling what seemed like a million mechanics to come perform work in his hangar, I finally found a guy that seemed good enough. The seller was supposed to spend two evenings with him, I got a call the night of visit number 1 from the seller, thank god I didn’t answer or listen to his voicemail bc I would have cussed him out and walked away. He called again the next morning and apologized for the voicemail he’d left last night and that the mechanic could come back for round 2. He was trying to shut it down and it was most likely bc he was anal retentive and stuck in his ways. Didn’t like some rando poking around his mistress. I never did listen to the VM. Anyway, I got a half ass pre buy done but to @A64Pilot point, the bird was in very nice condition. The hangar was in very nice condition. The cars in the hangar, very nice condition. It was a 10 compared to the other dumpster fires I’d looked at. So, I put my big sword away, fought with a dagger, and it worked out pretty good. We dug through it at first annual and everything was very clean. I still had an early engine death, detailed in full around here, but nothing more could have been done and it didn’t develop symptoms until a year and half after purchase. There’s often no perfect scenario. You look at enough birds, you know which ones are worth kneeling for, I think. Maybe.