P&P article on insurance denials for older pilots

[Parker_Woodruff]

24 minutes ago, Hank said:

The auto companies have data and statistics to back it up. Seems like this is lacking in aviation insurance for older pilots.

Aviation insurance doesn't have the laws of large numbers that auto insurance has, but I'm sure they can draw some conclusions depending on their sources.

But there's no reason to think that older pilots aren't more susceptible to claims involving air  transportation just because they are pilots or just because it's a plane and not a car.

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Aviation insurance doesn't have the laws of large numbers that auto insurance has, but I'm sure they can draw some conclusions depending on their sources.

But there's no reason to think that older pilots aren't more susceptible to claims involving air  transportation just because they are pilots or just because it's a plane and not a car.

True. But there is no evidence showing in NTSB records that older pilots have triple or higher the accident rate of younger pilots, despite many reports as above that premiums triple at a particular age and increase exponentially thereafter.

What is the accident rate difference to justify tripling the premium? This is the question that AOPA, EAA and yes, even AARP should be asking.

[Parker_Woodruff]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

True. But there is no evidence showing in NTSB records that older pilots have triple or higher the accident rate of younger pilots, despite many reports as above that premiums triple at a particular age and increase exponentially thereafter.

What is the accident rate difference to justify tripling the premium? This is the question that AOPA, EAA and yes, even AARP should be asking.

It's not necessarily tripling the premium within the same carrier.  One carrier might be very competitively priced but only allow for dual only or non-renew upon the pilot reaching age 75 or 80.  The other carriers that offer coverage past age 75 or 80 might have a higher baseline premium to begin with.

I insure many older pilots on certain aircraft and don't think I've seen the same carrier triple the premium due to age.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Also, most claims (whether or not they are age related) never get to the point of the NTSB being called.  I'm very interested to know pilot age & wingtip strikes during taxi...but we won't get good info that from the NTSB or FAA.

[jlunseth]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:37 AM, Steve0715 said:

If you don’t own assets, there’s nothing to protect.  

Who owns the LLC that owns the airplane? Or the house? Or whatever. All that means is that it will take an extra ten minutes to find and seize the asset. Oops. Oh, and you have to pay the state a few bucks every year to keep the LLC in good standing.

[Fly Boomer]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

All that means is that it will take an extra ten minutes to find and seize the asset. Oops.

Oops is right!

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

What is the accident rate difference to justify tripling the premium? This is the question that AOPA, EAA and yes, even AARP should be asking.

They can ask, but I’d expect them to be ignored. If I was the insurance company I’d ignore them.

It’s a Private business, they have the right to charge any amount they want to, but I think that many companies have sensed that they can jack up the rates on older pilots and get paid, so they do. 

Younger guys probably have the ability to shop around, because it’s my understanding that the number of companies that will write for older pilots is limited, so therefore if it’s only a couple of companies, then a monopoly of a sort exists.

I’m based on a grass strip, only a couple of companies will write a policy for a retract based on grass, so it’s prohibitively expensive, but I’d bet lunch that the number of gear ups on grass is remarkably similar to those on pavement, in other words I suspect the numbers don’t support the higher rate, but it doesn’t matter, if I want insurance I have to pay, I’m just thankful that I have a choice to decline it.

I’m going to assume that many people have to have insurance because there is a lien on the aircraft, and that just might be one reason rates are so high.

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Also, most claims (whether or not they are age related) never get to the point of the NTSB being called.  I'm very interested to know pilot age & wingtip strikes during taxi...but we won't get good info that from the NTSB or FAA.

You should be able to get ANY info on claims from the insurance companies though. The data is there, if there was a claim, there is data

[A64Pilot]

What I would expect and what would be logical I think for insuring older pilots is fight restrictions, like no IFR and no nights for example and possibly maybe even no class B airspace, or whatever the stats the insurance company has supports.

It’s in my opinion illogical to think that one day your fine shooting approaches to min at night, then the next day your not able to even fly day VFR.

I bring up nights because as we age we lose our night ability and even have more trouble focusing on illuminated instruments, especially if they are red lit.

[201Steve]

Arbitrary lines are created all the time. Why is 16 the driving age? (Are they unqualified at 15.9?) Why is 21 the drinking age? Why is 25 the rental car age? Why was Palestine divided like it was? Ad infinitum. Sometimes there isn’t a catch all rule. Some people get chopped and others get saved.  I think the biggest takeaway is the probably not correct regulation that says you can fly as long as you want, as long as you can meet the arbitrary minimum health criteria set forth by the FAA medical office that has no discrimination of age, AND keep up with the cost set by the private sector services which you may or may not elect to purchase . This conversation always baffles me, like it’s a big mystery that peoples performance declines during the aging process. “Where’s the data!” People scream. I mean… have you never met an elderly person? They get worse at stuff. Hate it for you and hate it for me but seems like a pretty known subject matter. The guy who blew through the blue angels TFR… 84. You can probably guess my position on why it happened… but here’s the good news!!!! You have the right to blow through TFR’s at any age!! Or… at least up until the point that you actually cross the TFR, but even then, they (probably) won’t revoke your right to potentially do it again! So it’s just a risk analysis calculation, and a self assessed determination of whether you want to use the insurances services or not. The meat and potatoes of the matter is this: we have a pretty good deal going. 
 

You have the right to fly until any age so long as you maintain the same random line health standards as anyone else. You just need more money to do it older, or more risk tolerance for your assets and family. That’s the Forrest through the trees and ain’t that nice. 
 

 

[GeeBee]

I bring this up to make the point again why Karl's insurance rates were jacked. The crash this week in VA of a single pilot Citation, pilot slumped over as F-16's tried to raise him points to the issue I raised and insurance companies fear.