TFR Violation Beaufort, SC 4/23/2023 Blue Angles Air Show

[PT20J]

18 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

A statement no doubt well considered and formulated to avoid liability.  
So then the only way to truly CYA is to call a briefer and ensure your voice and N number are captured on a recorded line receiving information as soon as practicable departure. 
it’s like having spreadsheet software that does not necessarily generate accurate values. So it’s merely there as a tool to be used in conjunction with a paper and pencil. 

This is just one more issue with the stupid NOTAM system.

[N201MKTurbo]

58 minutes ago, PT20J said:

According to the FAA, NOTAMs are the official source. Both ADS-B and ForeFlight obtain graphical TFR data from tfr.faa.gov. That website contains the following disclaimer.

This site is informational in nature and is designed to assist pilots and aircrews for flight planning and familiarization. It may be used in conjunction with other pre-flight information sources needed to satisfy all the requirements of 14 CFR 91.103 and is not to be considered as a sole source of information to meet all pre-flight action. Due to system processing delays, recently entered notams may not be displayed 

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But I read the text of the NOTAM and it was wrong too.

[Shadrach]

11 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

But I read the text of the NOTAM and it was wrong too.

HDHS...Humans do human $hit.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

HDHS...Humans do human $hit.

Yep. Imagine the problem if the NOTAM had been wrong the other way -- with dates a week after the event.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no way to protect yourself completely. Like life in general.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

So then the only way to truly CYA is to call a briefer and ensure your voice and N number are captured on a recorded line receiving information as soon as practicable departure. 

My understanding is that logging in to 1800wxbrief.com and getting a briefing there is also recorded.    Some systems go as far as recording page browsing, dwell time on sections, etc., so if you skip the NOTAMs it could be sensed.   I'm always careful to scroll through the whole thing.   

[201Steve]

17 hours ago, Shadrach said:

How insightful. 

Sometimes we can’t see the forest through the trees. How’s that for insight?

[PT20J]

7 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Sometimes we can’t see the forest through the trees. How’s that for insight?

Ah, to be a callow youth again.

[201Steve]

20 hours ago, PT20J said:

Ah, to be a callow youth again.

Callow, sure. Just to be clear, my comments are not an indictment on aging. It’s  an observation that given his age in relation to his actions, there’s likely a very strong correlation. Maybe if you’re near aged, that comment would be taken with offense.  Fly till you’re 100, I’d love to see it. But these lapses in judgement and the henceforth denial isn’t going to make it easy for my generation to get that far. I don’t have a clue about 4th quarter aging, but it does affect me and it does affect you. We can ALL point to a someone in our aviation circle  that should have hung it up already but refuses. His airport neighbors discuss it behind their back. Those are the people that hit power lines, bust airshow TFRs, and crash into 150’s in the pattern. Just for a few very recent examples. Those are the stories behind the rules that make insurance unobtainable and age limit rules in ATP. I can’t imagine how hard it would be to give up the passion of flight, and I empathize with anyone struggling with that decision but suggesting I’m “callow” or in a snarky tone “insightful” for mentioning it as the most likely single cause is part of the denial behavior that will affect me in the long term, and you in the short term. Aging and flight isn’t a myth. The question is, Do we want the FAA deciding on more arbitrary terms how they handle it, or do we as a community help each other to step down before it gives aging the reputation it’s earned in the regs?

[toto]

I’m mostly just eating popcorn here, but do we know who was actually flying this plane?

[larrynimmo]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:43 AM, GeeBee said:

 

The operative language is "listening watch". Not transmitting but listening. In your example, you can hear and that is good enough.

 

Ragsf15e is correct. The ILS 33 at KMTN takes you right through R-4001B. "Cleared ILS 33" is a clearance to go through the restricted airspace. "Cleared River Visual 18" at KDCA however does not allow you to blow through P-56 although many test that theory.....and lose.

 

Sorry GeeBee….KMTN doesn’t have an ILS…and while it seems like the same thing….it’s the LDA33.

[GeeBee]

42 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

Sorry GeeBee….KMTN doesn’t have an ILS…and while it seems like the same thing….it’s the LDA33.

I guess it has been a while for you Larry.

[ArtVandelay]

I guess it has been a while for you Larry.

And this is why you keep your charts/databases current.

[larrynimmo]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I guess it has been a while for you Larry.

I used to fly there twice a week…when my GF lived in baltimore….now that we are married, I only fly up to Martin once a month at the most….

I owe you an appology

[GeeBee]

28 minutes ago, larrynimmo said:

I used to fly there twice a week…when my GF lived in baltimore….now that we are married, I only fly up to Martin once a month at the most….

I owe you an appology

No apology required, but you do owe me a beer

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

And this is why you keep your charts/databases current.

Wow.

I fly this approach fairly often for proficiency, and last time I did, it was an LDA approach.  

I see the date on the place is February 2023.  So a very recent change.  Although, when I was flying A-10s out of MTN in the 80s, it was an ILS approach.

[T. Peterson]

On 4/27/2023 at 10:21 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

About a year ago I was flying through central california IFR and was handed off to some AFB approach control. He gave me a shortcut that took me right through a TFR. I asked him if it was OK to enter the TFR area? He said "what TFR?" I said the airshow TFR at your airport. He said "That's next weekend" I said "Not according to ForeFlight". He said he would check the NOTAM. He comes back a few minutes later and says the NOTAM is correct. Then he said I was the third person that day that was asking about the TFR.

What is a pilot supposed to do?

A clearance is a clearance is a clearance. Comply with the clearance. You may have to prove you are flying the assigned clearance but that’s a rare occurrence and radio tapes and radar tracks will prove your adherence. 
About a month ago LA Center asked me what SID I was flying. I responded with both the SID and the fix to which I was navigating. He responded with a vector to a different fix and a phone number to call for a possible pilot deviation. That gets your attention! Their claim was that I was supposed to have been flying a different departure. Fortunately I had the actual PDC issued by Clearance Delivery. I took a picture of it and sent it in to the folks at the other end of that phone number. I was told I could follow up in a few days and I did. Their finding was that there was no pilot deviation, which I knew anyway.

The issue was that TMO had issued a route change to LA tower 3 minutes after our time-stamped PDC. LA tower was supposed to advise us of the change but didn’t do it. The Feds verified all this by listening to the radio tapes and the investigation fellow also acknowledged my picture of the PDC.

The moral of the story is that you can get in trouble even when doing everything right, but so far at least if you have done everything right you will be vindicated.

 I had received a clearance, had complied with that clearance and that was the end of it.  It is certainly prudent to check for TFR’s, but if you fly through one while adhering to your ATC clearance, the bust is on them.
 

[GeeBee]

Had a similar thing out of Barcelona. No PDC printout because it was voice, but the tapes proved me right. I flew the correct SID and transition but the departure controller was expecting something else.

[T. Peterson]

12 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Had a similar thing out of Barcelona. No PDC printout because it was voice, but the tapes proved me right. I flew the correct SID and transition but the departure controller was expecting something else.

Even though you know you are right, it still causes that momentary panic, at least it does for me.

[MikeOH]

So, when these things end up being a controller deviation does the controller get suspended for 90 days, or more, without pay like the pilot? Somehow I doubt it….nothin’ like another gubmint double standard!

[T. Peterson]

13 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

So, when these things end up being a controller deviation does the controller get suspended for 90 days, or more, without pay like the pilot? Somehow I doubt it….nothin’ like another gubmint double standard!

I don’t know how all that works, but I don’t think controllers go unscathed when they mess up. They probably also have some kind of program to protect them similar to our ASAP program.