Hypothetically, if the CAFE Mooney was for sale, how much is it worth?

[Hair_Helmet]

What would you pay or speculate it's worth?

 

66 E with lots of history

160 kts on 7 gph

1000 mile range plus reserve

low hours on airframe and engine

exceeds VNE in level flight at full power

a face only a mother could love....

[aviatoreb]

What is it?  What's that mean the CAFE Mooney?

[Greg Ellis]

11 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

What is it?  What's that mean the CAFE Mooney?

It may have something to do with this.

CAFE Foundation - Wikipedia

[aviatoreb]

35 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

It may have something to do with this.

CAFE Foundation - Wikipedia

I was wondering that.

[GeeBee]

I guess I am a mother. Looks cool to me!

[gmonnig]

Man, I always thought that plane looked so sleek! I actually like the front end. To get 189kts at 8000ft is almost as impressive as the 28mpg it gets at 160kts. If you had the 88gal Monroy tanks you could go 1500nm with IFR reserve at 189kts or go 2000nm @ 160kts. 

[Hair_Helmet]

16 minutes ago, gmonnig said:

Man, I always thought that plane looked so sleek! I actually like the front end. To get 189kts at 8000ft is almost as impressive as the 28mpg it gets at 160kts. If you had the 88gal Monroy tanks you could go 1500nm with IFR reserve at 189kts or go 2000nm @ 160kts. 

I did an interview video a couple years ago with the owner, I bought my 62 C project from him in 2019.  It’s on my bucket list to cross the North Atlantic in the CAFE….

 

 

[KSMooniac]

A bit of a loaded question... as-is, experimental market-research category it ain't worth much, unfortunately.  (I'm assuming it hasn't been upgraded with the latest avionics and autopilot).  It's just not practically usable like a standard Mooney for most owners.  As-is, it might have value for someone wanting to pursue STC development for some or all of the mods as a test vehicle... and then it becomes a business case of how much additional it would cost to get approvals, and how many sales would be needed to return a profit.  I'd speculate that business would never close in this modern era.  It might have worked great in the 80s or 90s.

The better question to ask, what is it worth if all of the mods were certified, and you could fly it normally!  I'd say it would be easily worth $20-40k over any other E model, assuming comparable panel/engine times/cosmetics.  

[McMooney]

man if it was 10k ish, i'd totally buy it

[Hair_Helmet]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

The better question to ask, what is it worth if all of the mods were certified, and you could fly it normally!  I'd say it would be easily worth $20-40k over any other E model, assuming comparable panel/engine times/cosmetics.  

Great points throughout.  A number of the speed mods we have were first proven on the CAFE.  If it could be re-certified and daily driver capable... maybe 135k-165k?  50 hours on the engine, low airframe time having been a test platform all it's life but also means it has gremlins to work out.  Otherwise it belongs in a Mooney museum or part of Don's collection along side the Predator.

[Schllc]

12 hours ago, Hair_Helmet said:

What would you pay or speculate it's worth?

 

66 E with lots of history

160 kts on 7 gph

1000 mile range plus reserve

low hours on airframe and engine

exceeds VNE in level flight at full power

a face only a mother could love....

 

I think its beautiful.  Why wouldn't a manufacturer incorporate aerodynamic improvements like this into the plane?

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I think its beautiful.  Why wouldn't a manufacturer incorporate aerodynamic improvements like this into the plane?

No doubt. They basically extracted an honest 35kts with airframe mods and engine tuning.  I have to believe that some of the lessons learned could have been put into production.  Is there an other 4 place, 4 cylinder single that will push near 190kts in level flight?  It should be preserved for posterity. Especially given it's odd ownership history being bought new by Beechcraft and then making it's way to the CAFE foundation.

[KSMooniac]

1 hour ago, Hair_Helmet said:

Great points throughout.  A number of the speed mods we have were first proven on the CAFE.  If it could be re-certified and daily driver capable... maybe 135k-165k?  50 hours on the engine, low airframe time having been a test platform all it's life but also means it has gremlins to work out.  Otherwise it belongs in a Mooney museum or part of Don's collection along side the Predator.

I have no idea what it's current state is (I didn't watch the video linked above yet) but 135-165k might be plenty reasonable since we're seeing other E's above 100k regularly now.  But I would not pay anywhere near that for something I cannot load up and go anytime with my wife and dog.  

It was a great exercise by the CAFE folks, and I wish someone could've picked up the torch and carried the mods through an STC project.  Sadly I doubt that would be financially feasible today with all of the negative pressures on GA.

[Bolter]

3 hours ago, Hair_Helmet said:

I did an interview video a couple years ago with the owner, I bought my 62 C project from him in 2019.  It’s on my bucket list to cross the North Atlantic in the CAFE….

 

Great that this history is published somewhere.  I found it interesting.  I was rather surprised by how much was involved in the cowling, extending the prop out, and the complex flow of the cooling air.  As a new manufacture, it seems it would be easy to implement, but making it fit an existing plane is a little more work.  I wonder why there was not more trickle down of this cowling design to production planes.  Several of the other bits seem to have made it to production (hinge fairings, gear doors...)

If the current condition is no longer Experimental/Exhibition, this becomes a very usable plane.

-dan

[Andy95W]

I’d like to know how the CHTs ran.  Maximum aerodynamic efficiency probably doesn’t equal maximum cylinder longevity.

Impressive design and engineering, for sure.  I just wouldn’t be surprised if it needed some tweaking to prevent top overhauls every 500 hours.

[Hair_Helmet]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I’d like to know how the CHTs ran.  Maximum aerodynamic efficiency probably doesn’t equal maximum cylinder longevity.

Impressive design and engineering, for sure.  I just wouldn’t be surprised if it needed some tweaking to prevent top overhauls every 500 hours.

It had a problem with running lean and high temps prior to switching back to a traditional fuel injection.  The custom intake with throttle body injection caused the high temps, otherwise the aerodynamic efficiency allows for lower power settings achieving higher speed.  Lower power setting = lower cylinder pressures = longer engine life.  But it's still an angle valve IO-360 which some say do not last as long as our O-360's.

Probably more to your point is whether or not the cowl design allows for sufficient cooling and that's a good question.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Hair_Helmet

[Hair_Helmet]

2 hours ago, Bolter said:

If the current condition is no longer Experimental/Exhibition, this becomes a very usable plane.

-dan

Very true.  The owner has the credentials and experience to do that, fingers crossed.  Otherwise it deserves it's spot in aviation history.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I’d like to know how the CHTs ran.  Maximum aerodynamic efficiency probably doesn’t equal maximum cylinder longevity.

Impressive design and engineering, for sure.  I just wouldn’t be surprised if it needed some tweaking to prevent top overhauls every 500 hours.

As I recall, at times they ran pretty aggressive ignition timing so I would think cooling air had to be a priority.

[Shadrach]

32 minutes ago, Hair_Helmet said:

But it's still an angle valve IO-360 which some say do not last as long as our O-360's.

Interesting comment. Have you flown many angle valves? My observation has been that carbureted Mooneys run significantly hotter (by 30° to 100°) than their injected brethren. 

[Hair_Helmet]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Interesting comment. Have you flown many angle valves? My observation has been that carbureted Mooneys run significantly hotter (by 30° to 100°) than their injected brethren. 

They are different cases, wide deck vs narrow deck, different cylinders, etc.  I definitely do not fully understand the reasons people say one lasts longer than the other but a quick Google search made me realize I don't have the emotional energy to go down that bumpy road:)

[Shadrach]

29 minutes ago, Hair_Helmet said:

They are different cases, wide deck vs narrow deck, different cylinders, etc.  I definitely do not fully understand the reasons people say one lasts longer than the other but a quick Google search made me realize I don't have the emotional energy to go down that bumpy road:)

It’s not a bumpy road, it’s pretty straight forward. The injected angle valve engines no matter wide or narrow deck have better fuel distribution and a surplus of fuel when full rich. They run much cooler. That’s not to say the O360 is bad, it just requires more attention to power and airspeed management.

[1980Mooney]

It doesn't seem like it would be worth much more than any other M20E if even that.  It is possible that the attempt and actions to "save" it makes it neither desirable for a museum piece nor anything out of the ordinary for a "Standard Category" Certified plane.

When Kyle Kennedy purchased it in 2016 it was the original CAFE speedster in the Experimental/Exhibition Category.  The article by Dr.. Brien Seeley highlights how he achieved the speed gains.  Among other things he stripped out the IFR avionics, buried the single com antenna in the tail stinger, removed the autopilot, step, removed the Stall Warning detector in the wing, removed the pitot tube brace and stuck it in the wing leading edge, built a bespoke tuned exhaust system without any heater, built a custom cowl and extended prop/spinner, removed the wingwalk coating, step, built a bespoke 3rd door landing gear full cover, reduced the size of wheels, installed a throttle body injection, experimental electronic ignition, 2 "3-cell" batteries located in different places wired in series, etc.

'Homebuilt' Mooney (sustainableaviation.org)

In the article Dr. Seeley claims everything had to be Type Certified however I can't find any STC's in the database in the CAFE, or Seeley names.  Perhaps some exist.

In the YouTube, Kennedy makes it clear that he is removing and replacing everything that is not STC'ed back to stock.  He specifically states that he is removing the electronic ignition.  And he says that he has to reinstall the Stall Detector in the wing.  The question is what else is being converted back? - throttle body injection?, unique exhaust? cowl and spinner? gear doors?

FlightAware shows no flights since October of last year.  The registration seems to show that it is now "standard" category.  N6057Q Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

The question is how much really remains of its former CAFE form.

[Hair_Helmet]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

FlightAware shows no flights since October of last year.  The registration seems to show that it is now "standard" category.  N6057Q Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

The question is how much really remains of its former CAFE form.

Very interesting and well written.  It has flown since October without ADS-B, how much I've no idea, and it is still experimental for sure.  Great argument on value in CAFE form vs a return to certified.  I'd imagine a number of changes could remain with field approvals which is a lot of work for a one off.

[Hair_Helmet]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

It’s not a bumpy road, it’s pretty straight forward. The injected angle valve engines no matter wide or narrow deck have better fuel distribution and a surplus of fuel when full rich. They run much cooler. That’s not to say the O360 is bad, it just requires more attention to power and airspeed management.

The bumpy part is the perception from mechanics that the O-360's in the C's are more likely to exceed TBO than the IO-360's in reference to angled vs parallel.  Searching for data to support it seems futile, all I could find was feedback from engine shops.  Whichever is true I'd like to know and the answer isn't intuitive.  I suppose the relevance to this thread is discussing the value of the engine in the CAFE but I doubt it matters much.

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Hair_Helmet said:

The bumpy part is the perception from mechanics that the O-360's in the C's are more likely to exceed TBO than the IO-360's in reference to angled vs parallel.  Searching for data to support it seems futile, all I could find was feedback from engine shops.  Whichever is true I'd like to know and the answer isn't intuitive.  I suppose the relevance to this thread is discussing the value of the engine in the CAFE but I doubt it matters much.

Lycoming likely has some data on engine core trade in time in service as well as component serviceability, but that’s far from a complete picture.  I’d be interested in case crack data as my anecdotal observation is that the angle valves have more case crack issues. The engine in the Cafe E model is probably worth core value at this point. Regardless of TSMOH it’s likely  past calendar TBO, has had minimal usage over the last seven years and was at one time operated at aggressive ignition settings.