Transition training

[Trogdor]

I have 300 PIC. IR/CPL/HP

I've flown 172s, 177s, 182s, and DA40s (and even an SR22 once!).

I'm thinking about buying a Mooney and was wondering how does this work if I have zero time in type?

It's not like I know of a flight school that has a Mooney on the lot for me to fly and get some dual on (I'm in NJ). I don't currently have my complex since I've never needed it but I can go get that in a Piper Arrow. But I'm told that won't really help me with insurance for a Mooney, i.e. they want time in type, so I haven't done it.

Can someone explain to me the process coming from zero time in type? I can't be the only one.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Trogdor

[WaynePierce]

I went from a PA 28 180C Cherokee to an M20J with just more than 300 hours. I got the complex sign off and enough hours to satisfy my insurance company (it was either 10 or 15  hours). I got mine when I bought the plane from the dealer I went with. AllAmericanAircraft now known as DmaxAllAmerican. It was part of my purchase. You can get the transition training from any qualified CFI but they will have to have enough time in type and possibly model. If you're lucky the plane will be a few hours away from your location ... or more... and get the transition on the flight home.

[LANCECASPER]

@Parker_Woodruff can explain. He is our resident insurance expert and a Mooney CFI.

[Trogdor]

How would you get the transition on the flight home? Is there a minimum to solo (like 4-5 hours) and then another 5-10 for the full transition?

[Rmnpilot]

I did this a couple of years ago with my Bravo.   The plane was in Texas, I live in Wisconsin.  It worked out where we could do maneuvers and training over a couple of days on the trip back.   We could have easily done the flight in 3 hours but since I needed the training we went through  it all.   I had time in a twin and retract so things weren’t completely foreign for the complex/high performance part and insurance was reasonable 

[Trogdor]

So you brought a CFI with you? That's what I'm failing to understand. Or again, do some training at the pick up spot for a day, stay over, then fly home.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Trogdor

[rickseeman]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

I don't currently have my complex since I've never needed it but I can go get that in a Piper Arrow. But I'm told that won't really help me with insurance for a Mooney, i.e. they want time in type, so I haven't done it.

Can someone explain to me the process coming from zero time in type? I can't be the only one.

Whoever told you that....I don't know what to say. Go get your complex. When you find an airplane, you can call the insurance company and they will tell you what they need. Price matters. If it's a $50,000 C, they might ask for a 2 hour checkout? Some insurance companies are easy to deal with. If it's a new million dollar Acclaim, they will ask for more. If you call for insurance and don't have a complex, that's going to open another can of worms and they are going to have to research it and see what they need to ask for since you can't even fly it home legally.

[Pinecone]

You can do what works for you and the transition instructor.

My plan was in the Houston area for the pre-buy.  I met the instructor there and we knocked out the required 5 hours dual in one day, with some ground time the night before and after.  I flew my 5 hours required solo getting the plane back to MD.   I just couldn't take any passengers until I had both the 5 hour dual and 5 hours solo.

I had zero time in type, but a lot of retract time.

[RLCarter]

My insurance required 5hrs dual and 5hrs solo before I could take passengers… I think it 10 & 10 now? When you purchase, grab a CFI for the trip home, knock out the insurance requirements or more if you don’t feel comfortable 

[Pinecone]

4 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

If you call for insurance and don't have a complex, that's going to open another can of worms and they are going to have to research it and see what they need to ask for since you can't even fly it home legally.

His dual could be his complex checkout.

No retract time, they will probably want MORE that enough dual to get the complex endorsement.

And if he gets a K or later, High Performance also.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

How would you get the transition on the flight home? Is there a minimum to solo (like 4-5 hours) and then another 5-10 for the full transition?

It's not unusual for an owner to bring a CFI with them to pick up the airplane and obtain some of the insurance-required training on the way home.

The specifics can be different depending on the underwriters, but it's pretty common to require a certain number hours training followed by a number of solo hours before carrying passengers  

Sometimes insurance requirements are funny. I have enough Ovation hours to meet open pilot requirements but due to a number of things I didn't fly it much in 2020. So the insurer wanted me to have 2 hours dual from a CFI who met the warranty. Net result: I couldn't fly the airplane myself (as a specifically approved pilot) but I could give the required dual to someone else.

 

[rickseeman]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

How would you get the transition on the flight home? Is there a minimum to solo (like 4-5 hours) and then another 5-10 for the full transition?

A complex doesn't require solo time unless something has changed. Bear in mind we are talking about 2 different things here. #1 Legal to fly a complex airplane. (The easy part.) #2 Satisfying the insurance company. 

[Trogdor]

8 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

Whoever told you that....I don't know what to say. Go get your complex. When you find an airplane, you can call the insurance company and they will tell you what they need. Price matters. If it's a $50,000 C, they might ask for a 2 hour checkout? Some insurance companies are easy to deal with. If it's a new million dollar Acclaim, they will ask for more. If you call for insurance and don't have a complex, that's going to open another can of worms and they are going to have to research it and see what they need to ask for since you can't even fly it home legally.

Note: I have a high performance endorsement already (see 182).

Alright, I can certainly get my complex (I think it's two flights in an Arrow). But I was told that you can get your complex as part of your transition planning - the insurance doesn't care. Maybe that was wrong.

[rickseeman]

You can. But when you buy it and call the insurance company you want the qualifications in your billfold so they won't ask as many questions.

[RLCarter]

4 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

Note: I have a high performance endorsement already (see 182).

Alright, I can certainly get my complex (I think it's two flights in an Arrow). But I was told that you can get your complex as part of your transition planning - the insurance doesn't care. Maybe that was wrong.

That is correct….. complex & transition was done at the same time….. how did you get your commercial with out complex?

[Trogdor]

TAA.

[RLCarter]

Just now, Trogdor said:

TAA.

Forgot about that, even though I had to get 2.2hrs more dual and used a TAA 172

[Parker_Woodruff]

Buy plane.

Get dual instruction to include complex endorsement in your plane.

Fly solo for however long insurance co says to...

Don't waste your money renting a Piper Arrow if the sole purpose is just to get some RG hours and a complex endorsement.

Your insurance company, depending on how much total time you already have, will probably prescribe between 5 and 15 hours of dual prior to sole PIC operations, then another 1-10 hours of solo prior to carrying pax.

 

[Trogdor]

13 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Buy plane.

Get dual instruction to include complex endorsement in your plane.

Fly solo for however long insurance co says to...

Don't waste your money renting a Piper Arrow if the sole purpose is just to get some RG hours and a complex endorsement.

Your insurance company, depending on how much total time you already have, will probably prescribe between 5 and 15 hours of dual prior to sole PIC operations, then another 1-10 hours of solo prior to carrying pax.

 

This is what i was told by several folks, i.e. the Piper Arrow time is useless toward the Mooney from the insurance company's perspective.

[Andy95W]

@Trogdor- whatever Parker tells you is correct.  He is an aircraft insurance broker, and if you buy a Mooney he should be the first person you call or email.  His rates are comparable or better than anyone out there.

[N201MKTurbo]

How times have changed. When I bought my first Mooney, in 1984 I had about 5 hours in type and about 400 hours of recent retract time in a Cutlass RG. They said that was OK and sold me a policy. I flew the plane home and flew it to Oshkosh the next night. 

The 5 hours in type was a trip to Oshkosh with three other guys I didn't know. It was from a paper on the bulletin board at the airport. I got to fly 1 leg. So I had 1 take off and 1 landing. The plane was 200 Lbs over gross too... I mentioned that to the instructor who put this trip together and he told me to mind my own business. Oh, I had one more takeoff and landing when I took it on a demo flight with the broker who sold it to me. It seemed pretty easy to fly, that's why I bought it.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, Trogdor said:

This is what i was told by several folks, i.e. the Piper Arrow time is useless toward the Mooney from the insurance company's perspective.

What matters most for rates, in most cases, is RG hours.  And getting a quote with 5 hours RG vs. 0 hours RG basically makes no difference.

[Utah20Gflyer]

When I purchased about two years ago it was 10 hours dual with no extra time for pax.  I did the transition training over two days with half of that just flying the plane from Tucson AZ to Utah. If it were me and I had some time before the purchase I might get the complex in the arrow just have one less thing to think about, but it’s really not a big deal either way.  In my case when I was looking at Mooneys and renting planes I rented an arrow because why not?  Might as well develop the habit of putting down and taking up the gear while I’m looking. 

[Trogdor]

Next question, does this community curate a list of Mooney CFIs across the country?

[Red Leader]

Insurance required me to have 10 instruction and 10 solo for my 231. I found an instructor by doing a web search. My former insurance agency said my instructor had to have a minimum number of hours in a K, which limited my pool of available people. It had to be type specific because my plane is turbocharged. My retract time was fewer than 5 hours, which helped me not at all. I now have retract sign-off as well as complex and high-performance. Worth it.