Mooney Elevator AD

[Yourpilotincommand]

7 minutes ago, takair said:

I wonder why they had to specify neodymium magnet?  Why couldn’t they just say “magnet”?  I probably have a dozen magnets in my shop, but I couldn’t be sure if any are neodymium.  It’s the little things that can drive you crazy.

I would think a regular refrigerator magnet would suffice

[A64Pilot]

9 minutes ago, takair said:

I wonder why they had to specify neodymium magnet?  Why couldn’t they just say “magnet”?  I probably have a dozen magnets in my shop, but I couldn’t be sure if any are neodymium.  It’s the little things that can drive you crazy.

I’m sure it’s because a neodymium is a very strong magnet, if you don’t specify then someone could use a very weak one and miss the insert.

Aircraft inspections have to by nature be very specific, I’ve seen a min lumen output specified for the UV light to do dye penetrant inspections etc.

But unless you have the authority to sign off the AD, I’d just worry that it was a good strong magnet, one that I have that doubles as an inspection mirror and magnetic retrieval too I’m sure would work. 

I say this often, but for those that don’t like that an A&P or higher is required to do inspections etc., there is a class of aircraft especially for you, use to be they were all rag winged lawnmower powered things, but for several years Experimental's have been available that easily outperform most Mooney’s.

Go Experimental and don’t be aggravated anymore.

The AD specifies any aircraft I believe that could use smooth skinned elevators, because they could have had a discrepant part installed at some time during its life.

But no one says an owner can’t stick a magnet to the part to make sure, you just can’t sign off the AD. Silly as this sound even though I have a J, I tried sticking my magnet retrieval tool to mine when I first heard of this, why not?

Worst case if you have a hybrid weight it’s a 100 hr inspection that the logbook entry takes longer than the inspection, this one is as easy as it gets. Of course if you have an unsafe one, you want it out.

[Dmax]

[Fly Boomer]

3 minutes ago, takair said:

I wonder why they had to specify neodymium magnet?  Why couldn’t they just say “magnet”?  I probably have a dozen magnets in my shop, but I couldn’t be sure if any are neodymium.  It’s the little things that can drive you crazy.

As someone above suggested, a weaker magnet may not stick as well is the neodymium.

[Fly Boomer]

5 minutes ago, Dmax said:

Yeah, that doesn't look good.

[Gary0747]

2 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Yeah, that doesn't look good.

That clearly should have been caught years ago at annual.  Most likely it was not painted and sealed properly or spent a long time tied down close to the ocean.  The problem is some people have posted photos hybrid weights in perfect condition.  What is the remedy for them?   Also it has been reported the factory has not been able to provide replacement parts yet?  

[Fly Boomer]

5 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

That clearly should have been caught years ago at annual.  Most likely it was not painted and sealed properly or spent a long time tied down close to the ocean.  The problem is some people have posted photos hybrid weights in perfect condition.  What is the remedy for them?   Also it has been reported the factory has not been able to provide replacement parts yet?  

I thought the SB said Mooney had contracted with someone to build new ones?

[67 m20F chump]

40 minutes ago, Dmax said:

Mooney use to provide a service center training class every year. Last was 2005. One of the sessions would be on accidents. In the late 90's one of the classes was on flutter. Two Mooney Rockets had lost their tails due to elevator flutter. Both had encounter thunderstorms at high rate of speed. The pics of the elevator and empennages that were found miles from the main impact area were very sobering. Its over in seconds. There is no thinking about it.

The purpose of this AD is to save lives. If it saves one life its all worth it. It takes 5 minutes and a good magnet to confirm if you are affected.

Don

Think of how many lives we could save by grounding the fleet!  Those weights have been on those airplanes for over 50 years.  Not one in flight problem.  I can see a need to replace them but I don’t see the emergency.  Let’s just hope Mooney can actually get the part made.

[67 m20F chump]

28 minutes ago, Dmax said:

I bet they would have broken when new if you hit it on the side with a hammer.  

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Yourpilotincommand said:

If I stick a magnet to the elevator weights and determine there is a steel insert I may have the hybrid weight, right? That should be an easy test for me, and then my IA at next annual inspection. I’ll make sure this AD gets logged. It doesn’t sound like a big deal, unless I have the hybrid.

The effective date of the AD is Feb 13th, so you have until then to get the inspection logged before flying again.   The AD required action is "before further flight", so ask your IA if he's good with flying after that date without the inspection logged.    Some FAA inspector may also care if there's an incident or something.

For airplanes that do have the hybrid weights, any corrosion or cracks revealed during inspection will require replacement weights before further flight.

So, basically, the free pass lasts until Feb. 13th.

[A64Pilot]

30 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

Think of how many lives we could save by grounding the fleet!  Those weights have been on those airplanes for over 50 years.  Not one in flight problem.  I can see a need to replace them but I don’t see the emergency.  Let’s just hope Mooney can actually get the part made.

To follow your point to it’s logical conclusion, we must first kill a few before we take action?

I applaud Mooney for getting this SB out, and want you guys to consider just how valuable them being in business is, without them we may not have heard about this until after someone was killed and likely a grounding of all aircraft with a discrepant weight, and good luck getting one to replace yours.

It’s in all of our interests for Mooney to stay in business.

Compared to many other AD’s, this is nothing, it’s just a visual inspection is all, and even if you have the hybrid weight you can keep flying with only a 100 hour visual inspection, it’s only if you have one that could fail at any time that you even have to replace it.

Personally if I had a hybrid weight even if they were in perfect condition, I’d get the replacements on order now, because in a couple of years when your’s fail inspection, there may not be any available, or you go to sell having them may hurt potential sales.

[A64Pilot]

34 minutes ago, EricJ said:

For airplanes that do have the hybrid weights, any corrosion or cracks revealed during inspection will require replacement weights before further flight.

That’s what I have a little bit of heartache with, it seems there is no inspection criteria, even when no cracks are allowed I’ve always seen “no cracks allowed” or cracks not to extend beyond x length or x number of cracks etc.

So is a tiny crack grounding? How about a little rust discoloration?

As an inspector I don’t like it when there is no published criteria. It means zero damage tolerance

[Fly Boomer]

7 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

That’s what I have a little bit of heartache with, it seems there is no inspection criteria, even when no cracks are allowed I’ve always seen “no cracks allowed” or cracks not to extend beyond x length or x number of cracks etc.

So is a tiny crack grounding? How about a little rust discoloration?

As an inspector I don’t like it when there is no published criteria. It means zero damage tolerance

I think as Dmax suggested, those things are a ticking time bomb.  Addressing the problem with a soft response is just begging for the kind of accident that gets people killed.  Nobody wants that, and Mooney might not survive it.

[hammdo]

This is so similar to the eddy inspection for the non b hub. Same kind of deal.

Of course my initial concern is parts availability when the SB was issued. 

AD/SB is reality, just hope those affected have used or new parts available… let’s not get into OPP ;o)

-Don

[kortopates]

You really need to read step 2 of the SB if you do believe you have the composite weights. Especially everyone that keeps claiming  this is a non-event "visual inspection" because they obviously haven't read it and are just assuming.

A big clue is the 6 hrs the FAA allows for step 2 "visual inspection".

My prediction is that anyone with composite weights, once they get to know the facts will do the 6 hr visual inspection one time to get their Mooney flying again and promptly get on the factories list for the new weights and install the new weights before or when the next "visual inspection" is due! Or find a pair of salvage weight now if able and be done with it one time

Nobody is going to want to comply with the "visual inspection" every annual - its not so trivial at all at 6hrs. The AD quotes 10 hrs to replace the weights and then  no more 6 hr inspections every year.

see SIM20-145 for the paperwork to get on Mooney's list (and see your added pre-flight responsibilities) https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/sim20-145.pdf 

[A64Pilot]

49 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I think as Dmax suggested, those things are a ticking time bomb.  Addressing the problem with a soft response is just begging for the kind of accident that gets people killed.  Nobody wants that, and Mooney might not survive it.

I’m certainly no Laywer but seem to remember some kind of Aviation revitalization act that puts a time limit on liability.

Then I believe when a company goes under and is bought by another, company it’s now a different entity and there is no liability for aircraft not built by them, I know when we bought Thrush, we cut the liability tail, we had no liability for aircraft built prior to 2002.

So I don’t think the current Mooney has any liability, and then to not try to be impolite, but when you have very little assets, you are “judgement free” meaning no Lawyer will take the case as they earn commissions and the pockets aren’t deep enough.

Story is every few years a Corporate Jet with Lawyers flies down to Moultrie Ga., determines <aule’s assets and leaves 

[Gary0747]

20 minutes ago, kortopates said:

A big clue is the 6 hrs the FAA allows for step 2 "visual inspection".

Yes, and what is the underlying reasoning for this 100 hour elevator removal and weight disassembly?
All the photos I have seen of totally messed up weights show the parts inside the elevator to be fine.  This stands to reason since all the bimetallic parts subject to galvanic corrosion are well outside this area and can be easily inspected with out disassembly and rebalance.  In fact I think all this elevator removal reassembly creates the increased likelihood of a “maintenance induced failure”.   Not to mention cost and down time  

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

You really need to read step 2 of the SB if you do believe you have the composite weights. Especially everyone that keeps claiming  this is a non-event "visual inspection" because they obviously haven't read it and are just assuming.

A big clue is the 6 hrs the FAA allows for step 2 "visual inspection".

My prediction is that anyone with composite weights, once they get to know the facts will do the 6 hr visual inspection one time to get their Mooney flying again and promptly get on the factories list for the new weights and install the new weights before or when the next "visual inspection" is due! Or find a pair of salvage weight now if able and be done with it one time

Nobody is going to want to comply with the "visual inspection" every annual - its not so trivial at all at 6hrs. The AD quotes 10 hrs to replace the weights and then  no more 6 hr inspections every year.

see SIM20-145 for the paperwork to get on Mooney's list (and see your added pre-flight responsibilities) https://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/sim20-145.pdf 

So give us a link. 

‘What I found had no mention of a magnet, I provided the link, yet there is something that mentions magnets because a picture was posted.

Maybe what you have that says six hours for inspection is more in depth explanation, I’d suspect six hours is replacing and rebalancing.

From the link you posted it seems they are adding inspection of the weight as a pre-flight item, but then ref 345A as to further inspection?

FAA is where the six hours comes from with ten hours for replacement. I can’t see six hours for inspecting unless there are some upcoming much more invasive inspection that just visual.

There were only 130 of the bad weights made? If so then max possible aircraft that could have one is 130.

It would seem a 30 sec inspection to verify you don’t have a hybrid weight, be interesting to hear how many do.

[Rjfanjet]

68C. I don't have the hybrid weight.

[AIREMATT]

3 hours ago, Dmax said:

Mooney use to provide a service center training class every year. Last was 2005. One of the sessions would be on accidents. In the late 90's one of the classes was on flutter. Two Mooney Rockets had lost their tails due to elevator flutter. Both had encounter thunderstorms at high rate of speed. The pics of the elevator and empennages that were found miles from the main impact area were very sobering. Its over in seconds. There is no thinking about it.

The purpose of this AD is to save lives. If it saves one life its all worth it. It takes 5 minutes and a good magnet to confirm if you are affected.

Don

Thanks for all the knowledge and advice you share with the Mooney owners Don.

Appreciate it all!

Dan

[A64Pilot]

47 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

Yes, and what is the underlying reasoning for this 100 hour elevator removal and weight disassembly?
All the photos I have seen of totally messed up weights show the parts inside the elevator to be fine.  This stands to reason since all the bimetallic parts subject to galvanic corrosion are well outside this area and can be easily inspected with out disassembly and rebalance.  In fact I think all this elevator removal reassembly creates the increased likelihood of a “maintenance induced failure”.   Not to mention cost and down time  

There are obviously a lot more publications out there than I have seen, where are you getting removal of the elevator and or weight?

[Gary0747]

Original sbm20-345 was issued back in October but the latest sbm20-345A was issued in December with this surprising addition to part 2 remediation if hybrid was found and no cracks. 

[MikeOH]

Ok, I admit I have not, YET, read the AD.

One question:

1) Do I need to have the inspection since I do NOT have smooth elevators?

IOW, has Mooney/FAA ruled out models with NON smooth elevators?

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Ok, I admit I have not, YET, read the AD.

One question:

1) Do I need to have the inspection since I do NOT have smooth elevators?

IOW, has Mooney/FAA ruled out models with NON smooth elevators?

The way I read it is that all potentially affected aircraft are subject to an initial inspection to determine the type of weight installed. I am not sure whether this determination needs to be made by a credentialed maintenance professional or if the owner can make the determination.

If it is determined that the aircraft has airworthy hybrid weights installed, the elevator is subject to a recurring inspection. The AD can be terminated by installing non hybrid weights.

[A64Pilot]

32 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Ok, I admit I have not, YET, read the AD.

One question:

1) Do I need to have the inspection since I do NOT have smooth elevators?

IOW, has Mooney/FAA ruled out models with NON smooth elevators?

1. No

But I did, took 30 sec to see if a magnet would stick, so why not? I know it’s not required, but honestly if something very improbable can happen, it will happen to me. I’m that guy.

I didn’t record it in the book as the AD isn’t applicable to my J