Crosswind Landings

[donkaye, MCFI]

I flew to Dallas this past week to do a transition training in an Acclaim Ultra.  After the last few weeks in California with our deluge of rain, it was nice to get some clear weather for a change.  The first 2 days went well with smooth air and calm winds.  We  got through most of what I like to do with regards to flying the airplane, including the necessary ground instruction. This prepared my student well for the 3rd day.  A cold front moved through the previous night, and Wednesday dawned with strong winds.  We got off to a late morning start due to lingering rains and the lack of any approaches to this Airpark, but that provided time to review the G1000NXi.

Most of the smaller airports around the Dallas area where we were have single runways aligned North and South.  The wind was strong out of the West.   We first flew over to Bridgeport where we had worked in smooth air the previous 2 days and where, at 5,000ft long we could practice all the various types of landings I like to practice.  It didn't hurt that the fuel prices at $4.95 were cheaper than I have seen in several years.  With a single runway that was aligned 18-36, the AWOS called out the winds as 270° at 9G26.  I had the student line up on final for 36 with full flaps just to see what the crab angle would be to hold the runway.  It was close to 45°.  My rule of thumb is anything greater than a 15° crab angle means reducing the flaps to either approach or no flaps and increasing speed by at least 10 knots plus ½ the gust factor.  At 75 knots nominal approach speed that meant 75+10+9 or 94 knots.  It was VERY bumpy and gusty on the approach, but at 95 there was enough rudder to be able to align the airplane with the runway in the transition from crab to wing low.  The airplane needed to be flown onto the runway with touchdown at nearly 95.  This obviously requires a reasonably long runway.  The gusts were so bad that I needed to help with the landing.  The one thing nice about partial or no flaps is that the stall speed is increased so the airplane is done flying at higher speed.  At touchdown the power is gradually reduced as the plane slows.  If at any time during the power reduction there was not enough rudder and aileron combination to hold the runway as the plane slowed, we could have immediately gone around.  The landing was both challenging and exciting.  In fact it was exciting enough that time would have been wasted doing any more "practicing" there.  While fueling up I watched a C172 bounce down the runway, not able to make the landing and depart the field to who knows where.

We looked for more desirable airports, but the best we could find was Mineral Wells aligned at 13-31.  The takeoff from Bridgeport was by the book and we bounced on over to KMWL.  The winds were still strong, but the crosswind component was more like gusty 20 knots.  We were able to get in 17 full stop landings over the next few hours, and the student improved.  We then went back over to Bridgeport for fuel.  The winds were as bad a before, but this time favored runway 18.  We came over the threshold at over 95 knots, touched down, bled off the speed gradually, and were able to complete the landing.  This time I had the student fill up to get the airplane heavier for both a better ride and to have more options should we not be able to make the landing on the home airport of Propwash (16X) with its white fence just about on the threshold and 60x3000 foot dimensions.  Frankly, with those winds I wasn't sure a landing could be made there, but close by Alliance with its 11,010 foot runway would surely work as a backup.  It would be a short Uber ride back to the house.

We lined up on final for runway 17.  It was gusty, but nowhere near as bad as Bridgeport.  Watching the crosswind and headwind component on the PFD was very helpful.  There was a slight headwind component to help and we crossed the threshold at between 85 and 90 knots.  The touchdown was smooth and I committed to the landing as we slowed, as there was enough rudder and aileron to complete the landing.  I told the student that she got to see the full capability of the Mooney that day, but that she should not be going out on days like that until a lot more hours were under her belt.  She thanked me for the opportunity of being able to fly that day and said how much she got out of the day.

The Mooney is one great airplane.

[Rwsavory]

Good write-up. The Mooney certainly does well in strong crosswinds. But if I did 17 landings in one day in those conditions I would need a week to recover.

[PT20J]

it's not the airplane -- it's the pilot 

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, Rwsavory said:

Good write-up. The Mooney certainly does well in strong crosswinds. But if I did 17 landings in one day in those conditions I would need a week to recover.

During the time of the training we did 48 full stop landings, which is par for the course.

[Mooney in Oz]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

My rule of thumb is anything greater than a 15° crab angle means reducing the flaps to either approach or no flaps and increasing speed by at least 10 knots plus ½ the gust factor.

G'day Don.

Do you recommend the same for a J?

[donkaye, MCFI]

23 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

G'day Don.

Do you recommend the same for a J?

Hi Victor,

Yes, except per the over the fence speed in the attached file it would be 72+10+ ½ the gust factor.  At those "fly on speeds" it is very important to fly the plane onto the runway with no descent rate that could cause a bounce.  Throttle is then slowly withdrawn while adding aileron into the wind while maintaining directional control with the rudder.  At any time during the slow down if full aileron has been applied, but more is needed to hold the  runway, it's time to immediately go around.  The most direct crosswind I have experienced in my plane was one time coming into San Jose as a front was approaching, landing runway was 12, and the steady wind was called out as 45 knots at 210°.  I flew the plane on at 105 knots, no flaps, and used the procedure I just described.  To date I have not had to go around using this procedure on a reasonable length runway.  Oceano, L52, in central California was an exception.  The runway is 2,360 feet at sea level.  After doing my Landing Video we flew over there expecting to stay the night at a very nice rental Condo by the Beach.  I didn't have the equipment I have today to give the wind on approach and there is no AWOS there, but at some point you have to commit to the landing.  Once you do, there is no taking it back.   I've seen a Bonanza stuck in the mud off the end of the runway in the past.  At any rate, the first approach wasn't going to work so I went around. The second one also wasn't going to work, either, so I told Shirley that if it didn't look like it would work the 3rd time, we would go to Santa Barbara for the night.  Somehow, the gusty crosswind let up just enough on the 3rd try that I was able to commit to the landing and landed successfully.  However, short runways and large crosswinds usually don't work.  You need the time and runway length to gradually slow down.

Pages from Precision Flying With Don Kaye 8-11 .pdf

[Mooney in Oz]

27 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Hi Victor,

Yes, except per the over the fence speed in the attached file it would be 72+10+ ½ the gust factor.  At those "fly on speeds" it is very important to fly the plane onto the runway with no descent rate that could cause a bounce.  Throttle is then slowly withdrawn while adding aileron into the wind while maintaining directional control with the rudder.  At any time during the slow down if full aileron has been applied, but more is needed to hold the  runway, it's time to immediately go around.  The most direct crosswind I have experienced in my plane was one time coming into San Jose as a front was approaching, landing runway was 12, and the steady wind was called out as 45 knots at 210°.  I flew the plane on at 105 knots, no flaps, and used the procedure I just described.  To date I have not had to go around using this procedure on a reasonable length runway.  Oceano, L52, in central California was an exception.  The runway is 2,360 feet at sea level.  After doing my Landing Video we flew over there expecting stay the night at a very nice rental Condo by the Beach.  I didn't have the equipment I have today to give the wind on approach and there is no AWOS there, but at some point you have to commit to the landing.  Once you do, there is no taking it back.   I've seen a Bonanza stuck in the mud off the end of the runway in the past.  At any rate, the first approach wasn't going to work so I went around. The second one also wasn't going to work, either, so I told Shirley that if it didn't look like it would work the 3rd time, we would go to Santa Barbara for the night.  Somehow, the gusty crosswind let up just enough on the 3rd try that I was able to commit to the landing and landed successfully.  However, short runways and large crosswinds usually don't work.  You need the time and runway length to gradually slow down.

Pages from Precision Flying With Don Kaye 8-11 .pdf 58.19 kB · 2 downloads

Thank you Don. Very helpful as always.

Please pass on my regards to Shirley.

[donkaye, MCFI]

I should mention that Barry Schiff in his Book "The Proficient Pilot, Volume1" describes another Landing method for large crosswinds.  He describes landing a Cherokee 140 in a gusty 30 knot crosswind.  While interesting and adaptable to a draggy airplane like the Cherokee with oleo struts, I think using it with an airplane such as the Mooney with rubber shock disks, is asking for big trouble.

[Will.iam]

5 hours ago, donkaye said:

I flew to Dallas this past week to do a transition training in an Acclaim Ultra.  After the last few weeks in California with our deluge of rain, it was nice to get some clear weather for a change.  The first 2 days went well with smooth air and calm winds.  We  got through most of what I like to do with regards to flying the airplane, including the necessary ground instruction. This prepared my student well for the 3rd day.  A cold front moved through the previous night, and Wednesday dawned with strong winds.  We got off to a late morning start due to lingering rains and the lack of any approaches to this Airpark, but that provided time to review the G1000NXi.

Most of the smaller airports around the Dallas area where we were have single runways aligned North and South.  The wind was strong out of the West.   We first flew over to Bridgeport where we had worked in smooth air the previous 2 days and where, at 5,000ft long we could practice all the various types of landings I like to practice.  It didn't hurt that the fuel prices at $4.95 were cheaper than I have seen in several years.  With a single runway that was aligned 18-36, the AWOS called out the winds as 270° at 9G26.  I had the student line up on final for 36 with full flaps just to see what the crab angle would be to hold the runway.  It was close to 45°.  My rule of thumb is anything greater than a 15° crab angle means reducing the flaps to either approach or no flaps and increasing speed by at least 10 knots plus ½ the gust factor.  At 75 knots nominal approach speed that meant 75+10+9 or 94 knots.  It was VERY bumpy and gusty on the approach, but at 95 there was enough rudder to be able to align the airplane with the runway in the transition from crab to wing low.  The airplane needed to be flown onto the runway with touchdown at nearly 95.  This obviously requires a reasonably long runway.  The gusts were so bad that I needed to help with the landing.  The one thing nice about partial or no flaps is that the stall speed is increased so the airplane is done flying at higher speed.  At touchdown the power is gradually reduced as the plane slows.  If at any time during the power reduction there was not enough rudder and aileron combination to hold the runway as the plane slowed, we could have immediately gone around.  The landing was both challenging and exciting.  In fact it was exciting enough that time would have been wasted doing any more "practicing" there.  While fueling up I watched a C172 bounce down the runway, not able to make the landing and depart the field to who knows where.

We looked for more desirable airports, but the best we could find was Mineral Wells aligned at 13-31.  The takeoff from Bridgeport was by the book and we bounced on over to KMWL.  The winds were still strong, but the crosswind component was more like gusty 20 knots.  We were able to get in 17 full stop landings over the next few hours, and the student improved.  We then went back over to Bridgeport for fuel.  The winds were as bad a before, but this time favored runway 18.  We came over the threshold at over 95 knots, touched down, bled off the speed gradually, and were able to complete the landing.  This time I had the student fill up to get the airplane heavier for both a better ride and to have more options should we not be able to make the landing on the home airport of Propwash (16X) with its white fence just about on the threshold and 60x3000 foot dimensions.  Frankly, with those winds I wasn't sure a landing could be made there, but close by Alliance with its 11,010 foot runway would surely work as a backup.  It would be a short Uber ride back to the house.

We lined up on final for runway 17.  It was gusty, but nowhere near as bad as Bridgeport.  Watching the crosswind and headwind component on the PFD was very helpful.  There was a slight headwind component to help and we crossed the threshold at between 85 and 90 knots.  The touchdown was smooth and I committed to the landing as we slowed, as there was enough rudder and aileron to complete the landing.  I told the student that she got to see the full capability of the Mooney that day, but that she should not be going out on days like that until a lot more hours were under her belt.  She thanked me for the opportunity of being able to fly that day and said how much she got out of the day.

The Mooney is one great airplane.

Hi Don you were over in my neck of the woods. Was wondering why y’all didn’t try gainsville? KGLE? They have both 18-36 and 12-30 runways and right now their fuel is $4.80 for self serve. Their 18-36 just got resurfaced about a month ago too. My home base has trees lining for the north 1/3 of the runway so those west winds make for an interesting challenge as once you go below the tree line you have to dump the crabing into the wind or you will fly into the trees (which i swear seem to be magnetic trees) and if you are on the ground before passing the end of the trees you have to reapply rudder and aileron controls or you will get blown off the runway. Good news is that if you are not down on the runway before the end of the tree line the runway starts a 20ft drop to the last 1/3 of the runway and you don’t have enough runway left to stop so it makes it an easy decision to go around. At 25 to 30 kts depending on gusts I’ll call uncle and fly to KDTO and uber home. At night, 20 is my limit as i need the landing light to see the reflectors on the runway as we have only 4 red perimeter lights marking the corners of the field. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Will.iam

[jlunseth]

I used to go out once every summer to get used to landings like that, where I had to carry 90 kts down onto the runway with a full 90 degree crosswind. I have to say I have not done that kind of practice in the last couple of years and I know I should. Its exhausting and I applaud you and your student for soldiering through it. The part I don't like is that there is a point where the plane is still light on its feet but on the runway, and the wind will skitter it downwind a little. I aim for the upwind side of the runway. Not enough to worry about RLOC but I wonder about the tires I am paying for. For better or worse, those are conditions that are familiar in the Dakotas and west, and even here in the MSP area on occasion. There are no trees between the Arctic Circle and KBIS or KFAR to slow the wind down. I used to see those landings as a challenge, but the thrill has faded.