Aircraft sticker vs. sale price

[mkerian10]

Hello Mooney people. I'm still a few months (at least) from buying a plane and have a ton of learning to do. I've been trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can but one thing that's sort of secretive is how planes actually sell? Specifically what the market bears and if it's like some housing markets where you list a plane then just let people bid it up. I'm just sorta curious what the 'real' price of buying a plane is currently.

 

Specifically I was thinking about this plane.  '65 C ~1600 SMOH which isn't great but again I'm not super knowledgeable. Mid 70's on compressions which could mean anything from 73-74 to 77-76. Cockpit isn't glass but outside of these things it seems the owner has taken great care of the plane and is a fully capable and safe owner. It seems like a great plane to buy but the price sorta confuses me. Overall it doesn't matter how well you keep it if your engine is nearing overhaul and you have no fancy avionics. 

 

I'd just like some context since when I do get in the market for a plane it'll likely be a C (as much as I'd like to get something fancier). So at least getting a baseline and some more knowledge about how aircraft are priced and sold would be very helpful. I've looked into the Mooney pricing guide but he didn't get back to my email, plus I'd imagine the guide is out of date given the turbulent market conditions the last few years.

 

Thank you,

Matthew.

[mkerian10]

I'll @TravelVeteran. Since it's your plane you may be able to provide me additional context

[ArtVandelay]

When I was looking, I tracked all Js for sale at various websites for months, which ones sold quickly, which ones didn’t. After a couple of months I could tell which ones were overpriced and wouldn’t sell and which ones were a good deal.

[carusoam]

Mathew,

Find Jimmy… aka jgarrison

He writes a sorta blue book for Mooneys…

He is the most knowledgable person in the world of pre-flown Mooney sales…

Another resource is the e-mag MooneyFlyer… they offer a pricing strategy that may have aged a bit…

Inflation is going to make accurate pricing of pre-flown planes extra challenging…

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

A number of Mooney Flyer issues have a link the GMax/Jimmy Garrison Mooney valuation calculator.  If you are an AOPA member, you have access to Vref for a value guide.

To me, look around for advertised prices of aircraft.  They will vary based on condition, avionics, and time (total, SMOH, etc), but you can start getting an idea of what the market is at.  As mentioned, if you have time, you can see which ones sell and which ones do not.  

Even in the market last spring/summer, I did not hear of any bidding above asking price.  Based on my interactions, they seem to have been selling at asking price (if reasonable) or just a bit of a discount.

Once you are ready to buy, I suggest getting everything in place.  If you are financing, have that approved to what you are willing to borrow, even if that is over what you would like.  You may need to go a bit higher to buy the plane you really want.  I would even get a reasonable deposit in the hands of an escrow service to be ready to get a deposit down immediately.  I got my plane at a slight discount, even through they had a full price offer a day later, but I was ready NOW.  It was less than 10 days from offer to closing, including the prebuy and a 3 day weekend.

And when you find the plane that grabs you, and you start thinking that that is YOUR plane, then make an offer.

[Fly Boomer]

11 hours ago, mkerian10 said:

I'd just like some context since when I do get in the market for a plane it'll likely be a C (as much as I'd like to get something fancier). So at least getting a baseline and some more knowledge about how aircraft are priced and sold would be very helpful. I've looked into the Mooney pricing guide but he didn't get back to my email, plus I'd imagine the guide is out of date given the turbulent market conditions the last few years.

All good answers above, but the ultimate answer is anything that's sold is worth what the buyer is willing to pay.  This is especially so for a product or service in a thin market.  If there were a hundred M20C Mooneys trading each month, it would be easier to say what they are worth, but there just aren't that many for sale at any given time, and no two are alike.  Good luck with your purchase.

[VA FLYER]

Matthew,

I’m no expert on values, but I’ve owned a dozen airplanes over the last 55 years, so take my thoughts with that caveat. Prices are hard to figure out because there are so many variables from one airplane to the next. Sources like V-ref are more accurate for popular airplanes with lots of sales to populate their databases.
That said, the market has been pretty crazy over the last 36 months. My sense is that prices on most models are declining a bit at present. Take price guides with a grain of salt. Other commenters here have given good advice so I won’t repeat that. What I will add is that you should buy one in the condition and equipped as you want. Don’t buy less and think you want to “fix it up”. That almost never works unless you have the time, skills and certifications to do the work yourself. Airplane renovations are the source of the adage that “You can make a small fortune in aviation, if you start with a large one.” Pay a little more for what you want and you’ll be better off. With Mooneys especially, look for one that doesn’t sit around a lot. Corrosion is a big issue, particularly with idle Lycomings and steel cage airframes. 

Good hunting and good luck!

Tim

[chriscalandro]

Here’s some advice -

that is not a 90k airplane. 
 

not by a long shot. 

[bcg]

I bought a C in August for a little less than it was listed for. I saw it the day it was listed and had it under contract within a week, it was priced well to begin with. I paid cash so that made negotiation a little easier since the seller knew that if we agreed on price, it was a done deal.

I'm not a big fan of negotiating so I just told him to give me the number he actually wanted for it, not what he hoped to get, and I'd say yes or no. He gave me a good number and we completed the sale 3 weeks later, after a fresh annual from my mechanic.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[StevenL757]

10 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Here’s some advice -

that is not a 90k airplane. 

not by a long shot. 

With cloth seats, 1600+ SMOH, and no updated cockpit., etc. etc., absolutely correct.

[hammdo]

Controller right now has several prospects - couple E’s and F’s. C’s are there too.

-Don

[TravelVeteran]

12 hours ago, mkerian10 said:

I'll @TravelVeteran. Since it's your plane you may be able to provide me additional context

Engine runs great and per borescope inspections from the last annual everything is looking great.  A few years back when a cylinder was replaced the internals were checked out and also in very good shape.  I dont anticipate an overhaul being necessary for a long while based on the engine condition.  Perhaps a cylinder here and there or a top at some point.  The plane flies often and doesn't sit.  I use camguard regularly as well, although ive been told its not necessary since I am in a very dry environment here in Las Vegas.

As for the price, i simply checked all the other mooneys for sale I could find on planephd, and priced mine where i feel it should be compared to everything else that is out there.   Can definitely say I've put a ton of upgrades into the plane and its a solid aircraft.   I've already received offers on it but in no rush to sell.  

At the moment the plane needs nothing.  The only upgrade I was thinking about doing was installing a digitial altitude encoder (which i have and will be including with the sale if it it sold before installation). 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

I'm not a big fan of negotiating so I just told him to give me the number he actually wanted for it, not what he hoped to get, and I'd say yes or no.

I have used your technique when selling.  I ask the potential buyer if he wants my "haggling price" or "bottom dollar".  Some potential buyers understand this, and we can cut to the chase.  Others ask for the "bottom dollar", and then try to haggle from there.  Just walk away without a word.

[hammdo]

GMax has this E:

may be something to compare with…

 

[chriscalandro]

16 minutes ago, TravelVeteran said:

Engine runs great and per borescope inspections from the last annual everything is looking great.  A few years back when a cylinder was replaced the internals were checked out and also in very good shape.  I dont anticipate an overhaul being necessary for a long while based on the engine condition.  Perhaps a cylinder here and there or a top at some point.  The plane flies often and doesn't sit.  I use camguard regularly as well, although ive been told its not necessary since I am in a very dry environment here in Las Vegas.

As for the price, i simply checked all the other mooneys for sale I could find on planephd, and priced mine where i feel it should be compared to everything else that is out there.   Can definitely say I've put a ton of upgrades into the plane and its a solid aircraft.   I've already received offers on it but in no rush to sell.  

At the moment the plane needs nothing.  The only upgrade I was thinking about doing was installing a digitial altitude encoder (which i have and will be including with the sale if it it sold before installation). 

 

 

[Joshua Blackh4t]

Pricing aeroplanes gets you into philosophical territory.

Very much Schrodingers cat: problems will only become apparent when they choose to and often make the purchase price irrelevant.

I will agree not to buy a plane with a view to upgrade things. The downtime is hell. I have a similar dash to that C and my mecahnic has a stack of avionics to fit to it but I can't find time to do it. I'd rather be in the air with an old dash than on the ground dreaming dreams of glass panels that don't actually fly faster or more comfortable.

Also agree that a plane is worth what its worth to you. Some people see leather seats as extra value, whereas I only see that it looks good enough to be inviting to passengers, so anything else is wasted. I'd take the C over a luxurious Grumman Tiger with less performance. I fly over 100 hrs a year, the speed makes a difference.

Likewise, can't see the value in the glass dash, especially if VFR only. However, you'll probably want to get the wing leveler working for the roll trim. At least until the Aerocruze is available.

Its a nice plane, you might keep it 10 years and the purchase price won't matter then.

FWIW, my buying technique (in personal and business) is to pay sticker price unless its obviously made to bargain. Then the seller is happy and will be more likely to help out with transport, timing, dropping at a mechanic, etc which ends up saving more than you could haggle AND everyone is happy. 

[ArtVandelay]

GMax has this E:
may be something to compare with…
 

Another ad that tries to convince you this C/E/F is nearly as good as a J.
:-)

[ZuluZulu]

25 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Another ad that tries to convince you this C/E/F is nearly as good as a J.
:-)

Here we go again... 

[hammdo]

Not me, I know the difference ;o)

-Don

[chriscalandro]

It’s also worth noting, much like the example ad you listed, people think they will recoup their maintenance costs. 
 

Putting 30k into maintenance costs has 0 recoverable costs. Maintenance items decrease the sale price when needed.  They don’t increase the price above normal when completed. 
 

if say the example you listed has no appreciable avionics enhancements or add ons. 
 

if it’s what it says it is (it probably isn’t) it’s worth MAYBE 50s. Certainly not in the 90s. That’s a solid lol number. 

[Mcstealth]

3 hours ago, Joshua Blackh4t said:

 

Very much Schrodingers 

Okay. Gotta look that one up. I get the context but dictionary time. 

[Bunti]

My advice is: Find a plane which has the equipment you want and need. Don’t by too cheap or even expensive with old equipment. Narco radios are nice but they do not fly GPS approaches. I exchanged mine for Garmin radios 10 years ago. In my opinion, a good Waas GPS, an Aspen PFD or some other glass panel with a good autopilot  shall be the basic equipment today. A good trransponder with ADSB in and out is also important. 
 

Problem with the avionics is that it is very expensive to install. Especially with the old panels,  most of the time you also have to rebuild the whole panel. So updating outdated avionics is always a very expensive task. The final costs and downtime are not really predictable.

I would not care so much about the interior. This is very psersonal and can be upgraded easily. You can even do some of the work yourself.

This is from my own experience.

I bought a M20F for a good price with outdated avionics, panel, interior. If I add up my investments for speed mods, avionics …. I could have easily bought a very well equipped J model and left additional money in the bank. My F flyes wonderfully  and is not slower than most of the Js, but the upgrades took not only money, there was also downtime needed.

[hubcap]

I watched Controller for quite a while before I chose to pursue a particular plane. I had a pretty good idea what the market price was at the time and I think I got a decent price for the time I purchased. A plane with a low time engine and good avionics will bring top dollar and sell quickly. The engine time and the technology of the panel determine a lot about the price people are willing to pay.

 

[mkerian10]

Thank you everyone for the information. I really appreciate it.

 

Something else interesting, I saw this M20K for sale

 

That engine is on life support right now but outside of that it seems like a very well kept plane. Avionics are decent enough etc. Why is this being sold for only $95K? An overhaul costs 25-30 from my research. It's definitely a hassle to buy a plane knowing you'll very quickly need to overhaul the engine but it seems like a good enough deal to justify it. For ~$130k you're getting a solid M20K. Just curious if I'm missing anything

 

Especially compared to this M20K which is listed at 120 despite a horrid interior and being an ugly plane. Effectively the same price gets you two wildly different planes

Edited January 14, 2023 by mkerian10

[T. Peterson]

18 minutes ago, mkerian10 said:

Thank you everyone for the information. I really appreciate it.

 

Something else interesting, I saw this M20K for sale

 

That engine is on life support right now but outside of that it seems like a very well kept plane. Avionics are decent enough etc. Why is this being sold for only $95K? An overhaul costs 25-30 from my research. It's definitely a hassle to buy a plane knowing you'll very quickly need to overhaul the engine but it seems like a good enough deal to justify it. For ~$130k you're getting a solid M20K. Just curious if I'm missing anything

 

Especially compared to this M20K which is listed at 120 despite a horrid interior and being an ugly plane. Effectively the same price gets you two wildly different planes

The cheaper airplane has almost 9000 hours on the airframe and a timed out engine. Call Don Maxwell or Jimmy Garrison, but I don’t think you can overhaul that engine for anywhere near 30 grand.

 I am no expert but I would be more interested in the ugly airplane for 110 to 115 than the other one for 95. 85 on the other one might interest me, but I think the engine would be more like 45.

The 8900 airframe hours is a big detractor for me.