Considering Leaving General Aviation

[WAFI]

15 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

“Common sense” is the argument commonly used when someone can’t find any facts to support their argument. 
I appreciate innovation and the contribution that experimental airplanes have, but arguing that they are safer because you “feel” that way when the facts clearly illustrate the opposite doesn’t really mean much to me.

Yes, the STC process can be improved and NORSEE had led to positive changes in the certified world. That still doesn’t mean E-AB is safer because you feel that way. That’s not the way facts work.

 

I'm not going to get into how facts can be and are usually are one sided to push some agenda. That being said is where the "Common sense" comes in.

Its pretty hard to find comparable statistics that are relevant to what I'm proposing. You cant compare the broad certified world to the broad experimental world. It would be more realistic is if you compared the same planes in the two different categories. You can't look at statistics that do have a control to base their data. Don't compare Mooney crashes vs. RV crashes. A more realistic comparison would be a Certified Piper Cub vs. Exp. Carbon Cub and don't even take in to count the people who own Exp. aircraft really fly there planes to the limit vs the average Joe commuting to work or vacation.  It would be hard to take pilot error out of the all equations and focus on just construction.

[JayMatt]

Man what a depressing thread. Everything from it's new pilots fault (like me) to old pilots belly aching about everything. The weather must be bad everywhere and keeping people from flying...

Well here is my 2 cents from a wet behind the ears pilot that has 107 hours as of yesterday. I received my license to learn just a little over a year ago. It's been a challenging year as a new pilot and owner all at the same time. I've had magnetos go out in flight and a plane stuck across the country getting fixed and stuck figuring everything out on my own. I've had people tell me I'm stupid for stripping and painting my own airplane (which is 2 weeks from ready for paint btw) to not being able to find an oil filter. I've made some embarrassing mistakes while flying that made me look really stupid. I have seen a very toxic side of aviation in this time.

BUT I have also seen an amazing side of aviation. I've had people from all over help me and come together and offer help when they saw me determined to make things happen with our without them. I take the time to get to know everyone I can in the aviation world and get all the advice I can from the been there done that old timers. They have all painted their own plane a time or 2, even though they all swear they'll never do it again lol. I can promise you they loved and hated the experience as I do but I'm happy to be doing it. Everything about the aviation community is fascinating to me. There are so many cool ass people with interesting stories. Sure there are the stuck up pilots that think the word revolves around them but I think the down to earth pilots far outweigh the bad side of aviation.

Maybe all these difficulties are a sign that you should get more involved in the community of aviation and help change things? Change doesn't come from crying... do something about it. At the end of the day we're all just a bunch of people that love being in the air...

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, WAFI said:

I'm not going to get into how facts can be and are usually are one sided to push some agenda. That being said is where the "Common sense" comes in.

Its pretty hard to find comparable statistics that are relevant to what I'm proposing. You cant compare the broad certified world to the broad experimental world. It would be more realistic is if you compared the same planes in the two different categories. You can't look at statistics that do have a control to base their data. Don't compare Mooney crashes vs. RV crashes. A more realistic comparison would be a Certified Piper Cub vs. Exp. Carbon Cub and don't even take in to count the people who own Exp. aircraft really fly there planes to the limit vs the average Joe commuting to work or vacation.  It would be hard to take pilot error out of the all equations and focus on just construction.

I highly recommend a class on biostatistics. It turns out you actually can make comparisons between two groups and get meaningful data. Why would “pilot error” even be a confounder? Do E-AB pilots make more errors than ones who fly certified planes? I don’t think you really understand how this stuff works.

Using “common sense” in place of facts whenever the facts don’t support our preconceived notions is exactly why we’re so messed up right now as a society. 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, WAFI said:

Not completely correct, remember when you are talk about a mercury on your personal boat requires no certified mechanic to work on it. If your are talking about a commercial vessel then yes you are required to obtain a certified technician do certain work. For example you need an A&P to replace sheet metal on your Mooney and you would need a certified ABS Class or Loyds Class welder to replace shell plating on your steel vessel.  Once again its all about how the vessel is used vs how it was built. You can drop the Class Society at anytime and revert back to being a private vessel. Then have your backyard welder go at it.

It does not change the fact that the mechanics on pleasure boats make more than aircraft mechanics.

[WAFI]

Just now, ilovecornfields said:

I highly recommend a class on biostatistics. It turns out you actually can make comparisons between two groups and get meaningful data. Why would “pilot error” even be a confounder? Do E-AB pilots make more errors than ones who fly certified planes? I don’t think you really understand how this stuff works.

Using “common sense” in place of facts whenever the facts don’t support our preconceived notions is exactly why we’re so messed up right now as a country. 

"Pilot Error" would be a variable because I'm talking about plane construction and the ability to maintain them with the latest technology. Not the guy who fly's into a electrical tower.  Like I mentioned before I agree E-AB make more pilot errors than certified plane pilot because they take more risk flying not more risk building. Obviously this doesn't account for the radical left field builds.

[ilovecornfields]

6 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Like I mentioned before I agree E-AB make more pilot errors than certified plane pilot because they take more risk flying not more risk building. Obviously this doesn't account for the radical left field builds.

How do you support your assertion that E-AB pilots take “more risk flying?” Is this a feeling you have or is there something you can point to that supports this? We all have feelings…

[WAFI]

Just now, ilovecornfields said:

How do you support your assertion that E-AB pilots take “more risk flying?” Is this a feeling you have or is there something you can point to that supports this? We all have feelings…

Honest answer, I watch a lot of YouTube... 

Certified pilots try to butter there landings while E-AB pilots tend want to fly upside down, do barrel rolls, hammerheads, land off field or on some gravel bar on a river, etc...

I've been to a few Mooney meetups and they are pretty standard camaraderie and its fun to chat with other Mooney owners but there nothing like a bunch of STOL pilots meeting up to do a weekend unsanctioned race. Its just a different mind set and make sure you take this with a grain of salt. There is also plenty of safe STOL pilot meetups.

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, JayMatt said:

Maybe all these difficulties are a sign that you should get more involved in the community of aviation and help change things? Change doesn't come from crying... do something about it. At the end of the day we're all just a bunch of people that love being in the air...

That's generally a great mindset.  But most of the people commenting here, have been heavily involved, more than me, in aviation their entire life.  They've struggled to sustain it; much less make it better.  Just enjoy it while you can; while everything is fresh and new; the journey is worth it.   It's likely you'll end up being and old pilot talking about better days.  My most memorable aviation moment...  I was in a small town in MS 20-25 years ago and went to the airport to see if I could rent a plane.  The guy at the FBO, pointed towards a Cessna and told me if I could start it, I could fly it!  And that's exactly what I did.  Didn't check license, medical, no paperwork and no check-ride.  Imagine doing that today.  Good times.

[donkaye]

I flew down to San Diego for Thanksgiving.  The flight took 2 hours with no help from the wind.  The flight back took 2.3 hours into a 30 knot headwind.  Based on where I was going in San Diego the "all time in" time would have been at least 3 times my flight time had I gone Commercial, assuming the flight wasn't canceled.

On the way back, I noticed a little "I!" in the lower corner of my G5.  Actually, I think it may have been there for some time, maybe since it was installed, but things seemed to be working normally and I did't follow through on its meaning before.  This time I did, and the message was "no RS 232 input".  I thought, maybe it was tied into the electrical issue I had a couple of weeks ago.  I called my avionics guru and he said to come on over, that it shouldn't take long to fix.  I thought, "no way" and was prepared to have him say I needed to leave the airplane with him.  He pulled up some Garmin data on his computer, went to the plane, pulled the G5 and GTN750Xi, and did a continuity check.  It checked good.  He went back to the computer, did some more looking and came back out to the plane, put both units back in, and went to the setup in both units.   All  the while, he never said a word.  He changed a setting on the GTN, and said, "It's fixed".  I said surprised, "What do I owe you".  He said 20 bucks.  I said, "No way", and gave him $60 and felt guilty about it.

A couple of days later I went to have my oil changed and a few other minor items fixed; O2 fillup, seat belt and front panel correctly installed from an error done by an avionics shop that did my electrical repair.  Cost: Over $600.  My out of pocket cost: $0.  Why?  I had done a couple of engine break-ins and used my charge as a credit against future work on my plane.

In fact much of the costs associated with my aircraft ownership over the past 30 years has been paid for through my flight instructon, an endeavor I really enjoy.

What I'm saying is: "Where there's a will, there's a way".  Along with that goes my motto to not spend more than 10% of your net worth on your "toys".  That way some of the "crazy" costs will not interfere with your sleep.

Bottom line: For me, I can't imagine not owning an airplane, truly a "Magic carpet".

[ilovecornfields]

57 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Honest answer, I watch a lot of YouTube... 

You got me. You win.

[jaylw314]

39 minutes ago, WAFI said:

Honest answer, I watch a lot of YouTube... 

Certified pilots try to butter there landings while E-AB pilots tend want to fly upside down, do barrel rolls, hammerheads, land off field or on some gravel bar on a river, etc...

I've been to a few Mooney meetups and they are pretty standard camaraderie and its fun to chat with other Mooney owners but there nothing like a bunch of STOL pilots meeting up to do a weekend unsanctioned race. Its just a different mind set and make sure you take this with a grain of salt. There is also plenty of safe STOL pilot meetups.

Don't forget you are the primary confounder here.  You're selectively getting information from E-AB people who post videos on YouTube.  To assume that is representative of E-AB pilots is fallacious, and as a potential (and failed so far) E-AB pilot myself, I find that to be a pejorative position.  I've been to EAA chapter meetings and I can't say the degree of recklessness and/or risk taking is noticeably different than the other pilot groups I've met.

The only additional risk all E-AB pilots take with certainty beyond that of other pilots is that they are willing to fly in aircraft that are built uncertified.  If you're taking the position that uncertified aircraft can be safer, then even that doesn't apply.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

I highly recommend a class on biostatistics. It turns out you actually can make comparisons between two groups and get meaningful data. Why would “pilot error” even be a confounder? Do E-AB pilots make more errors than ones who fly certified planes? I don’t think you really understand how this stuff works.

Using “common sense” in place of facts whenever the facts don’t support our preconceived notions is exactly why we’re so messed up right now as a society. 

Design of Experiments was one of my fave math classes in grad school, especially since there were a lot of parallels to the signal processing math central to my career field.   I used that to good effect throughout my career.   

For most of the topics relevant to this thread I suspect it's difficult to get sufficient data to reach any reliable conclusions.   

[Marauder]

Much of what we are seeing in GA mimics what is going on in many trade industries. My generation was pushed to “get a college education” and there just aren’t as many people entering trades. That leads to higher prices, less availability and unfortunately worse quality.

For me, what is troubling is the quality of some of these shops. My last 2 MSC visits both resulted in after annual repairs because they messed something up. And I’m not talking about forgetting to put inspection panels back on or stripping half of the belly screws (they did that too). Rather genuine “holy crap” stuff. And when I tracked it back to the originator of the problem, it was the new guy who wasn’t being supervised. The same stuff happened when going to avionics shops.

I think this environment is one of the reasons the RV business has been solid. The guys I know who have built, are doing a much better job of maintaining their aircraft than the certified shops.


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[A64Pilot]

4 hours ago, WAFI said:

I propose that the FAA create a whole new category of aircraft class. (Decertified) I agree there should be certified aircraft in this world for the commercial sector but I really think there should be a way to decertify your aircraft and fly it for personal use only.  If I know I will never use my plane commercially and willing to limit the market for resale, then decertifying my plane would be great. Still have the same rules as far as maintenance is concerned but be able to tap into the after market parts availability and fabrication of parts would really change the game.

I'm in the maritime industry and they essentially have this type classifications.

• Full commercial Vessel - Classed, very strict rules                             (Certified World - ATP, Training Schools)
• Limited commercial Vessel- Classed but less rules                            (Certified World - Freight, Mail)
• Private classed Vessel- much less rules but still many SOP's             (New Decertified World - Private aircraft owner non-commercial)
• Private not classed Vessel- very little rules                                        (Experimental / LSA World)

 

I believe Canada allows owners to remove some aircraft aircraft from whatever it’s called and move them into owner maintained.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/aircraft-airworthiness/recreational-aircraft-airworthiness/owner-maintenance-classification

‘I believe it also significantly affects their value, wonder what it does for insurence

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think this environment is one of the reasons the RV business has been solid. The guys I know who have built, are doing a much better job of maintaining their aircraft than the certified shops.

Generally the RVs I see are beautifully crafted and maintained.   I help my hangar neighbor with his RV sometimes and whenever there's something fussy that's giving us trouble I say, "Who built this thing, anyway?"  It's definitely one of the nicer RVs I've ever seen, so it's just dumb ironic humor.    Other friends with experimentals of varying flavors are the same, they're maintained to a standard generally higher than seen in much of the rest of the certified GA fleet.  This may be partly because they aren't restrained to have to wait to schedule or pay a maintainer to do anything, they just get it done, so fewer things get deferred or put off for cost management, and there are fewer barriers to improving things when the opportunities arise.

That's not to say there aren't counter examples of people doing sketchy stuff on experimentals "because they can", but it's evident to me that the current hurdles in place on maintaining certificated GA aircraft aren't making them more safe from that perspective.   It's probably more the other way.

[A64Pilot]

I’ve seen a few very well built Experimentals, mostly from what amount to professional builders, people that have been building for years and have a significant list of aircraft that they have built. The more complex Experimental like that could replace a Mooney you want one of them to have built it.

But I’ve seen significantly more aircraft that I wouldn’t fly, seems especially the little light weight things, Zenith and Sonex come to mind, but then I wouldn’t fly an RV 12, or any RV with a nose wheel, too many have been killed when the shopping cart wheel folds under the aircraft

[OR75]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

Sure thing. I'll quit my job, ignore my Masters degree, head back to junior college and in just two or three years I'll emerge with my A&P certificate and some job experience. My career will have been flushed, I'll have to sell the house and Mooney to pay alimony to my wife who would leave me . . . .

That's a great idea, but not feasible for very many of us.

Indeed probably not feasible for many or even most. 
i did get mine and was fortunate that I did not have to quit my masters+ job 

it actually was a fun learning experience despite the long hours needed. 
Like someone said above « when there is a will, there is a way » 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I believe Canada allows owners to remove some aircraft aircraft from whatever it’s called and move them into owner maintained.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/aircraft-airworthiness/recreational-aircraft-airworthiness/owner-maintenance-classification

‘I believe it also significantly affects their value, wonder what it does for insurence

There are limitations to the Owner Maintenance category.  No border crossing to the US as there is no FAA equivalent category.

Here’s the list of approved models:

https://tc.canada.ca/en/corporate-services/acts-regulations/list-regulations/canadian-aviation-regulations-sor-96-433/standards/standard-507-flight-authority-certificate-noise-compliance-canadian-aviation-regulations-cars#App-h

 

[OR75]

11 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I believe Canada allows owners to remove some aircraft aircraft from whatever it’s called and move them into owner maintained.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/aircraft-airworthiness/recreational-aircraft-airworthiness/owner-maintenance-classification

‘I believe it also significantly affects their value, wonder what it does for insurence

i believe there is something similar for Alaska. 

[Raymond J1]

EASA today authorizes maintenance by the pilot-owner. In France, it is easier if the aircraft is classified as "CDN-R" (basically, collector's aircraft), which is not yet the case with the M20. For all M20s from before 1974, therefore ICAO CDN level, it is either the manufacturer's maintenance program, or a maintenance program filed by the pilot-owner which refers. The pilot can do the job if he has a mechanic's license. In any case, he is able to sign the A. P. R. S (Re-commissioning Approval), even if he is not the one who carried out the work.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Raymond J1

[Schllc]

The state of our genre is tenuous at best, manufactures can’t get sales to a meaningful number.  Is it the cost or is it the interest?

The FAA is almost the enemy of GA. Maybe not it’s not intentionally, but by design, they frustrate innovation so thoroughly, that by the time it’s “certified” its 10 years old. 
Where else does this occur?  I mean there is nothing, not even pharmaceuticals that is this obtuse and onerous, and that has far worse consequences.

As far as meaningful data for experimental vs certified…. 
I don’t see how useful data can be collected to be anymore specific than the aggregate. 
Certified will likely always be safer, just by the nature of the barriers to entry. 
This doesn’t mean a diligent, conscientious, competent and thorough person can’t build an experimental as safe as a certified aircraft. The can, and they do. 
Man’s natural state however will dictate that is the exception, not the rule. 
I think the best idea I’ve heard in a while was the suggestion to allow us to decertify our planes, even if you take the hit on value..

I know I can do most of what the average AP can do, and better than many of them as well.  Especially if it was on the plane I planned to fly!  But I am not legally allowed to, so I pay and then I check for myself after. I’ve found oil rags left in the cowling, spark plugs not tight, leaking injector lines…. 
Humans are fallible, it’s just natural law. 

It’s overdue for a serious revision/rewrite to part 91, and the rewrite to part 23 that was supposed expedite innovation needs to be given real latitude. 
The reality is that once a government agency gets its grip on anything, they eternally feel that the only way to justify their existence is to become more controlling. 
They have no competition , no oversight and no consequences for bad decisions. 
Look at the premise of the lawsuit the FAA brought against warbird adventures.  The potential Impact it has on Experimental and LSA is huge.  And all to punish something they don’t want, which people flying vintage planes. Who gave them the right to bring a suit against us?
Bureaucrats should never have this kind of power. 

[Ibra]

20 hours ago, JayMatt said:

Man what a depressing thread. Everything from it's new pilots fault (like me) to old pilots belly aching about everything. The weather must be bad everywhere and keeping people from flying.

It's November: aircraft sits with the mechanic, bad weather, end of year finances (plus I imagine in US nothing happens between TG & Xmas and that delicious turkey and happy family are gone ), so it's easy to reflect on one sad experience of GA ownership!

We don't get many threads like this in July 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Ibra

[Raymond J1]

For me it's a good time, the SB 388 from Lycoming is breaking my feet, so I'm going to change the valve guides.

[rogerl]

On 12/1/2022 at 9:36 AM, aviatoreb said:

I’m having EXACTLY the same problems getting my house worked on.  Plumbing roofing siding and addition - where did all the workers go?  The service has gone down the quality has gone fine but the prices have gone way way up.  Inflation is one thing but the decline of quality and impossibility of finding people stinks.

...

Atlas ... Shrugged.

Or:

• Covid.
• The Children.
• Demoncrats.
• Repugnicians.
• Wormholes?

De-incentivizing production while incentivizing sloth/corruption and mindless reproduction? <<Ah ha!

[aviatoreb]

21 minutes ago, rogerl said:

Atlas ... Shrugged.

Or:

• Covid.
• The Children.
• Demoncrats.
• Repugnicians.
• Wormholes?

De-incentivizing production while incentivizing sloth/corruption and mindless reproduction? <<Ah ha!

Wormholes!

Somewhere on the other side of the universe there's now an abundance of roofers looking for work.