Mooney 201 lands on high power lines in MD

[A64Pilot]

19 hours ago, Schllc said:

But seriously, airport noise causes diabetes?

Sure, from the airborne lead. Don’t you think there are places in the US that that alone is all it would take?

[Schllc]

47 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Sure, from the airborne lead. Don’t you think there are places in the US that that alone is all it would take?

I can’t tell if that is sarcasm or not…. Going to assume it is. 

There are no claims of lead poisoning, the assertion is that stress from the noise causes bad diet, and leads to diabetes. 

[aviatoreb]

12 hours ago, Schllc said:

I can’t tell if that is sarcasm or not…. Going to assume it is. 

There are no claims of lead poisoning, the assertion is that stress from the noise causes bad diet, and leads to diabetes. 

Maybe its the stress of trying to manipulate people to close their airport and thinking they can control their environment and people around them that leads to bad diet?

[T. Peterson]

On 12/17/2022 at 9:26 AM, aviatoreb said:

As a mathematician let me assert Lands Rights as an irregular cone outlined by the earth surface property lines extending to a point at the center of the Earth and out into space to infinity to the edge of the visible universe 13 billion light years away. Of course accommodating curvature of space time, it should be stated in terms of level surfaces to be mathematically well defined.

Thank you!! I was just thinking that very same thing! 

[A64Pilot]

On 12/18/2022 at 7:05 PM, Schllc said:

I can’t tell if that is sarcasm or not…. Going to assume it is. 

There are no claims of lead poisoning, the assertion is that stress from the noise causes bad diet, and leads to diabetes. 

It’s not sarcasm, I believe large parts of California are extremely concerned with airborne lead, even apparently put up signs at airports warning about it, but as I don’t go there maybe it’s not true, but I suspect it is.

Of course there is ZERO concern about sulphur emissions from Jet-A, ULSJ may be coming one day.

But anyway for anyone trying to close an airport I think throwing the health concerns of environmental lead is another arrow in the quiver, especially after the Federal Government is on record saying there is a public health concern over lead from 100 LL from the EPA.

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-proposes-endangerment-finding-lead-emissions-aircraft-engines-operate-leaded-fuel

You know it’s for the Children, oh my think of the poor Children, something must be done!

Do I think there is, no I think it comes from the illogic of zero tolerance, but what I think is completely irrelevant, just didn’t want anyone to think I’m for banning 100LL.

The fact that airborne lead has been reduced by 99% since 1980 is irrelevant, remember zero tolerance

That was sarcasm  

Noise wise airplanes aren’t as loud as lawnmowers or leaf blowers and exposure time is much less.

[A64Pilot]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:19 AM, aviatoreb said:

Maybe its the stress of trying to manipulate people to close their airport and thinking they can control their environment and people around them that leads to bad diet?

No, it’s a regular diet of Mcdonald’s, Big Gulps, and being obese.

[aviatoreb]

6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Do I think there is, no I think it comes from the illogic of zero tolerance, but what I think is completely irrelevant, just didn’t want anyone to think I’m for banning 100LL.

The fact that airborne lead has been reduced by 99% since 1980 is irrelevant, remember zero tolerance

I agree with this key part of what you said.

In the 1970s when all the cars were burning leaded fuel, and all the houses were being painted with leaded paint, and there was still plenty of leaded pipes sending us water, we were all exposed to lots of lead.  And especially for children, its no doubt really nasty stuff with some really horrible possible outcomes for children.

Now it is quite low, and the pain of bring it to absolute zero is quite hard.  Thus your phrasing - illogic or zero tolerance.

As I understand (not being an expert) the greatest risk to children, is sporadic, which is when certain children may live in a house that has old flaking lead paint they may eat.  Something to be guarded against on individual basis.  And even more rarely when there are still some lead pipes either in a house or a municipality (aka Flint).  I would not be worried about bringing a child on a piston airplane flight.  For the lead.....

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

No, it’s a regular diet of Mcdonald’s, Big Gulps, and being obese.

Chicken?  Or Egg?

[Hank]

6 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Chicken?  Or Egg?

Is there such a thing as a chicken mcmuffin? I only recall sausage or egg, then again I don't patronize the golden arches--nothing is very good except the coffee, tea and fries.

[Sue Bon]

17 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Noise wise airplanes aren’t as loud as lawnmowers or leaf blowers and exposure time is much less

Unless you live close to an airfield, especially one that has active flight schools doing circuits all day long. As a pilot, this doesn't bother me, but it does bother some of my neighbours. I know that my small village (pop. 1500) is responsible for enough noise complaints that we get mail from the airport to alert us of special events or changes in operating hours that would result in increased traffic.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

Unless you live close to an airfield, especially one that has active flight schools doing circuits all day long. As a pilot, this doesn't bother me, but it does bother some of my neighbours. I know that my small village (pop. 1500) is responsible for enough noise complaints that we get mail from the airport to alert us of special events or changes in operating hours that would result in increased traffic.

After coming back from Germany I was looking to buy a house, one the Relator showed me had a railroad track a few hundred feet from the backyard, good house, great price, I passed due to the RR track.

Looked at another house in Alabama, again great house, good price, across the road from chicken houses.

So why do people buy a house near an airport, then work to get the airport closed? What’s different about the airport than a RR? You think airplanes are loud, it’s nothing compared to a train at 3AM, but do they try to get the train banned?

One artist bought land near Ft. Rucker and immediately started trying to get a stage field near his house closed because it disturbed his peace, this Stage Field had been there since Vietnam, but he was successful. 

Hooper Stage field where I Soloed years ago is pretty much downtown Ozark Ala. , and is sometimes used at night as we train at night. There are two night flights so pretty late at night too. When I worked at the test activity I lived in Ozark, there was one guy complaining about the noise in the media. Mayor went on record stating that it sounded like money to him and that was the end of it.

If you buy a house near a paper mill and it stinks, and trust me they do, so far as I know no one has gotten a paper mill closed.

What’s special about aviation, how come it’s such an easy target and they are successful closing an airport that preexisted the houses?

Now Germany was crazy, they pretty much kill aviation, one place I went to they couldn’t even electric winch launch gliders during quiet hours, because of complaints of the noise the cable made as it went through the air

[ilovecornfields]

14 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

What you are talking about is called “coming to the nuisance” in the law.  It is effectively a defense to a nuisance claim, but it must be affirmatively asserted. Perhaps in the case of the stage field near Ft. Rucker the Army chose not to assert it.  IDK.  

What is special about aviation is sociological; not legal. General Aviation is perceived by the masses, however inaccurately, as a rich man’s hobby.  It’s a class warfare thing and we are both on the wrong side of the issue environmentally (which is very PC right now, of course) and vastly outnumbered.  

I agree that it’s class warfare but it seems more like “rich” developers vs upper middle class pilots not “rich” pilots vs the masses. Seems most of the reasons for closing airports are financial (increase property values, sell off the land to developers, etc.) Making the argument that airports need to close because of environmental concerns seems pretty disingenuous. That being said, it does seems like there is a measurable increase in lead near airports so hopefully switching to G100UL will help invalidate the environmental argument.

I had a discussion with my son recently about perceptions vs reality and how often giving the perception of doing something wrong can be as harmful as actually doing that. Had the same conversation a couple of days later with one of my adult learners. Both told me it “not fair.” I agreed but told them that was the reality so they needed to deal with it.

[Sue Bon]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

So why do people buy a house near an airport, then work to get the airport closed?

Well I, for one, bought my house because of its proximity to the airport. I love living so close that I can look out the window and decide to go flying.

No one here is trying to close the airport. Some people just love to complain.

FWIW, I left my previous home in Interlaken due to the noise overhead. My top floor apartment is in the middle of town, over which there are over 65'000 tandem paragliding flights every year, with tourists that don't have an athletic bone in their bodies. They scream. They scream in fear for their lives at the top of their lungs from sun up until sunset 65'000 times per year. That drove me mad. I started crying every day around 3pm and had nightmares at night. At the time I was studying for my IFR/CPL exams and was unable to concentrate. It was awful.

Of course, the brain is wired to react negatively to screaming. Motors are different.

[EricJ]

22 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I agree that it’s class warfare but it seems more like “rich” developers vs upper middle class pilots not “rich” pilots vs the masses.

A couple decades ago a guy built a really nice race track right next to the end of the runway at Luke AFB.   Not exactly a quiet pastoral setting, so it was a pretty good site choice for a track.    At that time Luke was still kinda BFE in the desert west of Phoenix.

A developer (Suncorp) started to build a bunch of neighborhoods there, and campaigned to get the track closed based on noise by actively soliciting complaints from neighbors to submit to the county.     They nearly succeeded, but instead we wound up with the only track in AZ with sound limits, which requires a lot of cars to have a specific exhaust or intake setup for that particular track.   Years ago I was going down the back straight at full throttle and couldn't hear myself think because an F-15 was taking off on full AB from Luke.   It wasn't a very logical situation.

Meanwhile, Suncorp went bankrupt during the real-estate crash, but the track is still stuck with the sound limits.   

So, yeah, don't assume that it's driven by the populace, as there may be somebody else driving the bus.

[FlyingDude]

@Sue Bon I see that you’re in switzerland. I heard the swiss do have tolerance for noise and actually shun out those who oppose some noise. You just need to promote planes to a cow status…

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/01/switzerland-citizenship-nancy-holten/513212/
 

[Sue Bon]

4 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

@Sue Bon I see that you’re in switzerland. I heard the swiss do have tolerance for noise and actually shun out those who oppose some noise. You just need to promote planes to a cow status…

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/01/switzerland-citizenship-nancy-holten/513212/
 

 That's wild, but completely in line with the Swiss! Do not mess with their cows and their bells!!

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, Sue Bon said:

Some people just love to complain.

Here is the heart of the matter. I read about another “airport noise” case, where people were trying to close the airport. Of the 3,000 some odd complaints, 90% were from one household. 
If I believed an environmental concern around my house was destroying me physically, I would move!  But…. Some people live to complain. 

What baffles me, is that when the airport knows that 90% of the complaints come from one person, why do they still waste all the time, money and energy on noise commissions, studies etc?

Politicians will torture the person or entity who is completely within the law, because of complaints of a nutbag. 
I had a job years ago where the neighbor was a terror, constantly calling code enforcement or the police for things she didn’t like. I did nothing illegal or improper but the police or city would still come and lecture me and ask me to stop things that I not only had to do but were legal!  
Finally I lost it on them, I said to stop harassing me, the legal party, and tell the person complaining to stop wasting everyone’s time!  
All common sense seems to be gone from the public sphere. 

[Ibra]

I was asked "aircraft noise certificate" when visiting and paying landing fees in few airports in Europe, my aircraft is N-tail and FAA never issued these for pistons 

Maybe they are issued for Raptors, Hornets & Falcons owned by civilians? 

After getting fed-up with higher landing fees every time in southern Germany & Switzerland, I made my own paper with "76dBA on takeoff" that I stamped myself, I copied someone data with same type, engine, prop...that saved me load of money

On noise levels (real or imagined) one can compare the full power 76dBA with noise from cars & motorcycles with limits allowed up to 96dBA

There is something annoying about aircraft noise that is not related to an actual noise level? you have to ask the  grumpy complainer after you have land with a smile to figure it out 

I had "low flying noise complaint" while flying motor-glider with feathered propeller in UK countryside, you can't make everyone happy !

Edited December 24, 2022 by Ibra

[A64Pilot]

We have a pretty “tight” neighborhood, one person who moved in made a complaint about someone’s dog being viscous, which is unfounded, now it’s true the dog will chase their golf cart because they have hit the dog with a pickle ball paddle.

Anyway the dog catcher came out and read the dogs owner the riot act culminating with any further complaints would lead to them taking the dog and as it was a viscous dog they would kill it.

Pretty much everyone in the neighborhood filed affidavit's with the County saying the dog wasn’t a problem and the complainer was using the County to prosecute a personal matter.

The complainer is no longer invited to any Social events in the neighborhood of which there are many, with us almost all being pilots and Retired.

Seems they now spend very little time here now, are often gone and I expect to see a for sale sign, haven’t yet though.

You can accomplish a lot with peer pressure, if you stand as a group.

[A64Pilot]

14 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I was asked "aircraft noise certificate" when visiting and paying landing fees in few airports in Europe, my aircraft is N-tail and FAA never issued these for pistons 

Maybe they are issued for Raptors, Hornets & Falcons owned by civilians? 

After getting fed-up with higher landing fees every time in southern Germany & Switzerland, I made my own paper with "76dBA on takeoff" that I stamped myself, I copied someone data with same type, engine, prop...that saved me load of money

On noise levels (real or imagined) one can compare the full power 76dBA with noise from cars & motorcycles with limits allowed up to 96dBA

There is something annoying about aircraft noise that is not related to an actual noise level? you have to ask the  grumpy complainer after you have land with a smile to figure it out 

I had "low flying noise complaint" while flying motor-glider with feathered propeller in UK countryside, you can't make everyone happy !

There have been FAA noise limits for a long time, any prop STC etc has to test for it.

I believe AG aircraft are exempt, but can’t quote chapt and verse.

I’m sure Military is exempt too, but for some aircraft like helicopters there is a strategic advantage if the enemy doesn’t hear you coming so they are made as quiet as possible.

But some aircraft are loud, and it’s almost always the prop, nothing is louder than a C-185 on floats with a “Borer” prop, but Bonanza’s aren’t quiet.

Mooney’s due to our short props are relatively quiet, 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/appendix-F_to_part_36

[Ibra]

Yes it's covered in airframe & powerplant certification (usually in TCDS) against FAA limits, however, for piston propeller one does not get separate paper from FAA that says "it's 80dBA for N321AB" 

It make sense to talk about these limits when discussing aircraft & airport noise level, if anyone has an issue they can go and edit ICAO Chap6-Annex 16 limits 

If someone has (subjective) low tolerance to noise under (objective) measurable certification limits for aircraft & motorcycles, cars...well...

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Ibra

[Pinecone]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

So why do people buy a house near an airport, then work to get the airport closed? What’s different about the airport than a RR? You think airplanes are loud, it’s nothing compared to a train at 3AM, but do they try to get the train banned?

The really stupid one was Miramar.  When the Navy built is, they purchased all the land around and zoned it commercial.  So little to no noise complaints.

Some developers sued to get it rezoned, and were successful, and put houses in.  Now they all complain about the noise

 

[A64Pilot]

47 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Yes it's covered in airframe & powerplant certification (usually in TCDS) against FAA limits, however, for piston propeller one does not get separate paper from FAA that says "it's 80dBA for N321AB" 

It make sense to talk about these limits when discussing aircraft & airport noise level, if anyone has an issue they can go and edit ICAO Chap6-Annex 16 limits 

If someone has (subjective) low tolerance to noise under (objective) measurable certification limits for aircraft & motorcycles, cars...well...

 

No but if your asked you should be able to show them a copy of the limits it was Certified to.

I’ve found that an official looking certificate you typed up often makes them happy. On the boat I even had a stamp made that had the USCG registration number and boat name etc so I could stamp custom forms etc, seems officials love stamps, they will take something if it’s stamped that they won’t if it’s not. Like some countries require a return airline ticket, if I typed up a form saying they were flying in as boat crew and would leave with the boat so long as it was stamped they didn’t require a return ticket.

‘Could usually get away without paying customs fees for parts if I gave customs a letter stating parts were required to repair a boat in transient, but only if it had the official looking stamp  

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

The really stupid one was Miramar.  When the Navy built is, they purchased all the land around and zoned it commercial.  So little to no noise complaints.

Must have been Maverick doing all those fly-bys.

[Yetti]

Not sure if it was mentioned back there, but apparently when the pilot called 911, the 911 dispatcher told the pilot "To stay on the line"