Insurance doubt/concern (8k/yr!)

[redbaron1982]

Hey guys, I know this has been a recurrent topic here.

I'm a bit concerned regarding insurance costs. I'm renewing and the quotes are coming around 7k/8k per year.

A few things to have more context:

1. Although I had own my M20J for almost a year now, I haven't got to fly it yet. Horror movie first annual right after buying it, still working to have it fixed. So in my case 0 time make and model.
2. I don't have my Instrument Rating yet. I'm almost there (waiting for the check ride to be scheduled).
3. 150 hours TT

In this scenario, I'm getting 8k/year quotes. For a hull value of 170k and 100k/1M personal/property damage.

What rates are you saying in a more favorable scenario? Meaning with let's say over 100 hours make/model and instrument rating?

[A64Pilot]

I’m Commercial / instrument lots of hours and over 100 hours in this airplane and I think insurence is 3K a yr, but I’m based on grass which means only one or two companies will even write.

I think you may have bumped into one reason why a complex right out of the box may not be the best idea.

Real question is what will it cost next year?

I thought mine would go down second year because I only had 25 hours or so in make and model, but they were 1989? But it went up, not down after a year and 100 hours accident and incident free.

I would self insure and just may if it keeps going up, but the gear worry me, as in I just don’t trust them enough to self insure.

I think my hull is 100K, probably ought to ask what 125 K cost

[201er]

Sounds about right. Can't be expecting everyone else to be paying for rookie gear up mistakes. I know so many Mooneys that got gear upped or prop struck in the first 25 hours of new low time owner.

I think with 100 hours and instrument you can expect to cut that in half and with 1000+ hours not quite in half again. What does that say about your current risk factor though? Be super careful, get good instruction, get lots of practice, don't do anything stupid, don't over estimate your capabilities, don't get too comfortable, and before long you'll be out of the danger zone and you won't have to pay so much for insurance.

[A64Pilot]

We have a member who I believe is a Broker, Parker?

He I assume may pop in, perhaps he can help

[redbaron1982]

21 minutes ago, 201er said:

Sounds about right. Can't be expecting everyone else to be paying for rookie gear up mistakes. I know so many Mooneys that got gear upped or prop struck in the first 25 hours of new low time owner.

I think with 100 hours and instrument you can expect to cut that in half and with 1000+ hours not quite in half again. What does that say about your current risk factor though? Be super careful, get good instruction, get lots of practice, don't do anything stupid, don't over estimate your capabilities, don't get too comfortable, and before long you'll be out of the danger zone and you won't have to pay so much for insurance.

Yeah, regarding being safe, I am quite aware of the risks and my limitations, so I will go very slowly, have been practicing for a year in a PC simulator just to get used to importance of checklist (i.e. not landing gear up) and also I'm getting my instrument rating as way of add another layer of safety (not much planning of using the extra flexibility to fly in weather conditions).

So I'm quite confident that I will approach this the right way.

Maybe reducing the hull value is a good idea, as may main concern for the insurance at the beginning is not losing the aircraft but being broke because of the property damage I can inflict in others).

[StevenL757]

59 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Hey guys, I know this has been a recurrent topic here.

I'm a bit concerned regarding insurance costs. I'm renewing and the quotes are coming around 7k/8k per year.

A few things to have more context:

1. Although I had own my M20J for almost a year now, I haven't got to fly it yet. Horror movie first annual right after buying it, still working to have it fixed. So in my case 0 time make and model.
2. I don't have my Instrument Rating yet. I'm almost there (waiting for the check ride to be scheduled).
3. 150 hours TT

In this scenario, I'm getting 8k/year quotes. For a hull value of 170k and 100k/1M personal/property damage.

What rates are you saying in a more favorable scenario? Meaning with let's say over 100 hours make/model and instrument rating?

That sounds about right for someone in your position.  Reasons you're seeing that premium number...

1.  Hull value

2.  Low total time

3.  "0" make/model time.  Unfortunately, the carrier doesn't care whether you've owned it for a year.

4.  No Instrument Rating

You can't (nor should you) reduce the hull value, but you CAN control the other three.  Once you have a fair amount of time in type (around 100 hours), and pass your IFR Practical Exam, your next year's renewal is likely to be significantly less.

Welcome to General Aviation.  :-)

[ZuluZulu]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

Hey guys, I know this has been a recurrent topic here.

I'm a bit concerned regarding insurance costs. I'm renewing and the quotes are coming around 7k/8k per year.

A few things to have more context:

1. Although I had own my M20J for almost a year now, I haven't got to fly it yet. Horror movie first annual right after buying it, still working to have it fixed. So in my case 0 time make and model.
2. I don't have my Instrument Rating yet. I'm almost there (waiting for the check ride to be scheduled).
3. 150 hours TT

In this scenario, I'm getting 8k/year quotes. For a hull value of 170k and 100k/1M personal/property damage.

What rates are you saying in a more favorable scenario? Meaning with let's say over 100 hours make/model and instrument rating?

When I bought my J in 2020 I was very similarly situated. Like you, I had 150 hours TT, no complex endorsement, and no IR. Only 1.1 hours in a Mooney. Similar hull value, maybe slightly less. My insurance for the first year was a few hundred shy of $4K. 

Your quotes say it’s pretty much doubled since then. I’ve added 200 more hours in type and it really hasn’t come down much—market inflation has probably wiped out any reductions I would have otherwise received. No IR, but hoping to add it next year. We’ll see if it makes much of a difference but I’m still paying mid-$3K.

[Parker_Woodruff]

You should be able to get a ground rate both for now and renewal if it won’t be ready to fly. If you have a loan on the plane you’ll need written approval from the lender.

[redbaron1982]

Thanks guys for the responses. It seems that insurance goes between 2k and 4k for more "normal" conditions. That some way comforting because this will be a temporary situation for me. As soon as I get the airplane I expect to put around 150 hours per year. So after first (second) year it should go down at least a half with IR + ~150 hours in make/model.

[redbaron1982]

2 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

You should be able to get a ground rate both for now and renewal if it won’t be ready to fly. If you have a loan on the plane you’ll need written approval from the lender.

Yep, I'm planning on renew it that way if there is no certain date for the airplane to be airworthy again.

[toto]

If it were me, I’d be interested to know where the insurance breakpoints are, and spend some time building targeted time while the annual from hell is remediated.

[gevertex]

6 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Hey guys, I know this has been a recurrent topic here.

I'm a bit concerned regarding insurance costs. I'm renewing and the quotes are coming around 7k/8k per year.

A few things to have more context:

1. Although I had own my M20J for almost a year now, I haven't got to fly it yet. Horror movie first annual right after buying it, still working to have it fixed. So in my case 0 time make and model.
2. I don't have my Instrument Rating yet. I'm almost there (waiting for the check ride to be scheduled).
3. 150 hours TT

In this scenario, I'm getting 8k/year quotes. For a hull value of 170k and 100k/1M personal/property damage.

What rates are you saying in a more favorable scenario? Meaning with let's say over 100 hours make/model and instrument rating?

I am in a similar situation, have owned the airplane for ~8 months now, haven't flown it yet.  So close though.  Any timeline on yours?

[redbaron1982]

Just now, gevertex said:

I am in a similar situation, have owned the airplane for ~8 months now, haven't flown it yet.  So close though.  Any timeline on yours?

Waiting on a wing spar from Mooney. Not sure when it's going to be ready. Hopefully before end of year. In my case the horror story was corrosion on the wing spar. What was your case?

[gevertex]

Just now, redbaron1982 said:

Waiting on a wing spar from Mooney. Not sure when it's going to be ready. Hopefully before end of year. In my case the horror story was corrosion on the wing spar. What was your case?

Engine overhaul, mechanic sold business to another mechanic, another dozen squawks not identified in prebuy.  On the last few now, hopefully I'll be flying it in a couple weeks.

[DCarlton]

3 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Waiting on a wing spar from Mooney. Not sure when it's going to be ready. Hopefully before end of year. In my case the horror story was corrosion on the wing spar. What was your case?

Any chance you could post pics of the corrosion and point out the location?  We might learn from it.  If you haven’t posted already.  Thanks.  

[Niko182]

My first year was I think 4k with a 130k hull value. That was 0 make model, 0 complex, 0 high performance. Now I'm paying 3.3k per year for 265k hull value, 100k, 1m, with 885 hours in make and model, plus an instrument and commercial single/multi.

[redbaron1982]

9 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Any chance you could post pics of the corrosion and point out the location?  We might learn from it.  If you haven’t posted already.  Thanks.  

I did post about this some time ago, the pictures specifically can be found here: 

 

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I did post about this some time ago, the pictures specifically can be found here: 

 

Sorry I did see that a while back and participated in the discussion. Good luck with the repairs!  

[geoffb]

$170K J model?  That's a factor.  You're paying about 4% on the hull?  Sounds about right, even low, for year 1 no make/model.  FWIW in 2004 I paid a much higher rate on my E when I got it.  I"m paying just under 2% on the hull now with 1,000 hours Mooney time.

[A64Pilot]

Of course you can reduce the hull value, but be careful with that because the insurence company can “buy” the airplane from you in the event of a claim.

Say it’s worth 170, but you insure for 100 and have a prop strike, insurence can give you a check for 100, fix the engine and sell it for 170.

They were out the engine cost anyway so in effect they could make 70.

Before anyone says it can’t happen, I’ve seen it.

Man had a Maule for a long time, bought it cheap as it needed a lot of work, insured it for what he paid for it, time goes by airplane is recovered, new engine and interior, insurence renews year after year at the same insured value, he broke an Oleo strut on landing, turned in the claim, insurence writes him a check for full insured value, sells the airplane for more than the check, I know the guy who bought it, repaired it and original owner bought it back.

Original owner had the understanding that I thought too, that was if you insured for x that was all they would pay to fix it, you cover the rest. Didn’t think when insurence paid out they owned the airplane.

 

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

Get your IR, rack up some time in type and the premiums will come down.  In the big scheme of things a big premium for one year is not a big deal compared to the long term costs to own and operate an airplane.  

Have you tried Avemco? They tend to be best when dealing with higher risk situations. 

[Marc_B]

I think this boils down to if they pay out as a "total loss".  In that case they give you the "total value" agreed upon in your policy and assume possession of the aircraft.  I'm not sure what options you have to choose how a claim is processed...i.e. choose to have the aircraft repaired vs treated as a total loss, or is this completely up to the insurer?  I'm sure there are situations where the cost to repair is less than total value however the total value paid out - amount from salvage and sale of parts is less than the repair.  I've always heard to adequately cover your hull value adequately to protect your financial investment, but I guess maybe not necessarily protect that specific aircraft?

Good first hand lesson from Malibu Flyer on YouTube...great aircraft, silly mistake/accident, underinsured hull (had completely updated interior, avionics and paint but didn't adjust insurance) with spar damage = significant financial impact.  I guess some lessons you learn the hard way.  Yikes!  Have heard of other accidents here on MS where an aircraft hull value not increased and insurance "totaled" it and salvaged the aircraft.  Kinda sad that way.

Does the mere fact of having an insurance policy mean that the insurance company "owns" your aircraft?

 

[Browncbr1]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:41 PM, Niko182 said:

My first year was I think 4k with a 130k hull value. That was 0 make model, 0 complex, 0 high performance. Now I'm paying 3.3k per year for 265k hull value, 100k, 1m, with 885 hours in make and model, plus an instrument and commercial single/multi.

Where from? That seems like a good rate  

I am about to renew $120k hull, 1500TT commercial multi/single instrument, 900 hours in this plane.  43 years old.  Based on 2 mile runways in hangar.  Quote is $2024.  

Edited November 24, 2022 by Browncbr1

[Niko182]

4 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Where from? That seems like a good rate  

I am about to renew $120k hull, 1500TT commercial multi/single instrument, 900 hours in this plane.  43 years old.  Based on 2 mile runways in hangar.  Quote is $2024.  

That was through @Parker_Woodruff company with his partner jack.