I think we can expect new air show rules.

[Pinecone]

8 hours ago, Marauder said:

Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer/radio operator and 2 “mechanics”. Texas Raider performed some single main gear flybys with smoke. In addition to ground handling, I suspect the “mechanics” were there to assist in emergency gear extension, fuel transfers if required, etc.

Juan did a nice summary of what they know so far. Altitude separation is an open question at this point.

 

 

 

 

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Based on this, I retract several things I have previously posted.

I do question the design of the pattern that has different speed aircraft flying the SAME ground track at the SAME altitude.  There is NO room for error with that pattern.

It means that the P-63 did not cross a boundary, but was aiming for the same ground track as the B-17, based on the design of the pattern.

In the video, it points out that for the 2021 show, the fighters appeared to be above the bombers, with some altitude separation.

 

[Pinecone]

21 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

A scanner so positioned might very well have seen a seemingly stationary P-63 on an inside track rapidly approaching from the rear.  If they didn’t have them maybe they would have made a difference.  IDK.  

If they were looking back.  As I understand their position, they are looking at their aircraft, not looking around for other aircraft.

[Rick Junkin]

A tragic loss of life. My hope is this event will serve to improve future Airshow safety rather than lead to an end of commemorative aircraft performances.

Does anyone have access to the Standard Operating Procedures or Airshow Performer’s Guide published for this event? Knowing what published/briefed rules and procedures were in place would inform our individual assessments and opinions. @KSMooniac, @Pinecone, have you possibly seen these documents posted on the other forums you’ve referenced?

In my opinion and experience more operational rules are seldom the best answer, and simple, clearly defined altitude, track, and lateral restrictions for deconfliction work best. But every show is different. If we can know what was in place we can more accurately assess if a violation of the briefed rules occurred and was causal, or if perhaps the rules and procedures were inadequate. Aircrew qualification and practice requirements are another area to look at. But until I know this information any speculation on my part would be uninformed and ill advised.

Rick

 

[EricJ]

10 hours ago, Marauder said:

Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer/radio operator and 2 “mechanics”. Texas Raider performed some single main gear flybys with smoke. In addition to ground handling, I suspect the “mechanics” were there to assist in emergency gear extension, fuel transfers if required, etc.

Juan did a nice summary of what they know so far. Altitude separation is an open question at this point.

 

 

 

 

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That's really frustrating to watch since it appears that this may have been fairly predictable.    Very sad.

[Pinecone]

I have not seen any documents on this one.

I flew in the show at Sun n Fun twice.  They used both lateral separation and altitude separation.  And no one passing anyone in the same pattern.

 

[jaylw314]

Can you imagine realistically keeping situational awareness with 6 other aircraft in the pattern at twice typical pattern speed?  I would hope that standard practice would be for every aircraft to have its own spotter on the ground, but I suspect that is not the case.  Even in a normal traffic pattern, it's so easy to get tunnel-visioned on just one other aircraft.

[Pinecone]

You should try a 4 v 4 furball.

 

[Ned Gravel]

18 hours ago, PT20J said:

Yeah, that was a bummer. Lead's plane had a mechanical failure that limited elevator travel and the whole formation following him into the ground coming out of a loop as I recall.

For those of us who have qualified for formation flying, we always hear of the story.

Lead: "Sh**", followed in very quick succession by - "2,"  "3,"  "4."

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Ned Gravel said:

For those of us who have qualified for formation flying, we always hear of the story.

Lead: "Sh**", followed in very quick succession by - "2,"  "3,"  "4."

Ooof, that's morbid, but funny!

[KSMooniac]

I have not been privy to any of the briefings or other documents either.  There is a ton of great discussion on Beechtalk, with inputs from military and warbird pilots with tons of experience, including one that was flying in the show, and another that has in the past.  Some of it heated, but great analysis there.  

I'm very amateur with regards to formation flying having only done our standard Caravan clinics/practice/OSH arrival.  That gives me just enough knowledge to observe and understand how difficult/complex/dangerous the big shows like this can be, but not enough to really draw my own conclusions independently.  Just flying as a wingman and sticking to lead is challenging enough.  Trying to fly formation in trail (I think that is what was happening at KRBD with the fighters) AND maintaining situational awareness to multiple other dissimilar aircraft nearby sounds very complicated to me.  

I'm still sick over the whole thing.  I enjoy watching these old warbirds fly and hope they will continue.  I understand the risks of doing so.  I hate that we lost 6 souls enjoying this passion we share.  I took my dad to this airshow last year and sure enjoyed the day.

[BKlott]

I’ve had the privilege to attend a number of Air Shows at different venues. The very best we’re held at Torrance Airport back in the late 1960s and early 1970s. While the line-up of pilots was impressive, Art Scholl, Mira Slovak, Charlie Hilliard and Bob Herendeen, my favorite part of the show was at the beginning. The vintage aircraft would takeoff in trail, starting with the oldest and working up to the newer models, fly one large circuit around the field, perform a low pass down the runway and then one more circuit back to land.

It was so much fun just to see the old, unique vintage planes fly by that it was the most memorable part of the Air Show for me. Not one other Air Show that I have attended ever did this the same way.

Having been an eye witness to multiple aircraft accidents, I can assure you that I do not enjoy watching pilots push their planes and luck to the limits close to the ground. I would rather not watch this stuff to be honest. Having seen the consequences of things going wrong up close and in person leaves images that can never be forgotten. Accidents like this do nothing but harm General Aviation in this country. It scares people away from flying and hurts us all. None of it is necessary.

 

 

[bcg]

Have you guys seen this video? Definitely looks like he hit something, speculation is it was a drone. I hope that's not the case but if someone was flying a drone in the vicinity of an air show and caused this, I hope they haven't had a minute of sleep since.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/dallas-midair-tragedy-new-videos-show-startling-change-in-flight-path-of-p-63/ar-AA14KpwD?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=df7ce04a4c154805aa31906445e2c3de


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[Marauder]

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[EricJ]

Article from AOPA includes a link to the preliminary NTSB report:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/december/07/ntsb-releases-preliminary-report-on-dallas-midair

[A64Pilot]

Ref change to air show rules. I’ve given that some thought.

So long as no visitors were hurt on the ground and no damage to property I think that shows current regulations worked.

Not to sound terrible, but do we need FAA rules to protect us from ourselves? You can’t drive accident rate to zero, but I concede the necessity to protect non participants.

Ref Civilian formation flying, I’ve got about 4,000 hours over 16 years Military flying with the overwhelming majority of it formation, not to sound ugly but the RV old men in flight suits out flying formation make me nervous. I’m surprised there aren’t more accidents. 

But this wasn’t a formation was it? I’ve not really looked but it seems it was many different airframes at vastly different speeds. I would think an actual formation would be much safer, besides formation in fixed wings just means a “bump” doesn’t it?

 

[Pinecone]

The civilian FAST program for formation flying is pretty good.

It started with the T-34 folks and a lot of them were military.  It is based on the military formation training, taking parts for USAF and parts from the Navy.

I am military trained, and FAST qualified, and done a good bit of flying the the T-34 folks, and the do a pretty darn good job of formation flying, safely.

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

But this wasn’t a formation was it? I’ve not really looked but it seems it was many different airframes at vastly different speeds. I would think an actual formation would be much safer, besides formation in fixed wings just means a “bump” doesn’t it?

In the preliminary report, the airboss directed the fighters to transition to trail formation, cross in front of the bombers to the 500 foot line.  The report did say the bombers were in formation, but gave no details as to what directed or actually happening there.

AFAIK the only other fighters were P-51's

Edited December 18, 2022 by jaylw314