Lycoming factory overhaul vs. rebuilt

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I got some clarification on Lycoming overhauled engines today. Turns out you won’t get any of your engine back including the data plate. If you order an overhaul, Lycoming will build it and ship it and you have 120 days to return your core after you receive the overhauled engine. Note that this gives Lycoming a delivery time advantage over field overhaulers since they don’t have to receive, tear down and inspect your engine. They just start putting one together from parts inventory already on hand,

The Lycoming specs for what parts can be used in an overhaul are somewhat looser than for a rebuilt, so as previously stated, some used parts that qualify for overhaul might not qualify for a rebuilt, but the differences are likely academic. New, rebuilt, and overhauled are all built on the same assembly line, by the same people, using the same processes. 

A rebuilt engine comes with a new data plate and a new logbook starting at zero time.

An overhauled engine comes with a data plate from a returned core and a new logbook with zero time since overhaul and total time carried forward from the logbooks that went with the data plate. This is why Lycoming is strict about requiring logbooks to be returned with cores - they need the total time that goes with the data plate.

Skip

 

So when you get a factory overhaul you will not know TT until your engine arrives?

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

So when you get a factory overhaul you will not know TT until your engine arrives?

That’s my understanding. 

[A64Pilot]

I would call Gann and speak to him about his performance engines.

I believe a good field overhaul can be a better overhaul than the factory

[PT20J]

My decision to buy a factory engine was influenced by a desire to minimize risk of having issues. There are many fine overhaul shops. However, the quality is heavily dependent on the particular mechanic doing the work. With the shortage of mechanics, people are moving around a lot. I saw this firsthand when I was flying float Beavers for a Part 135 operator in Ketchikan. We got back a couple of engines that had issues right after overhaul and it turned out that the shop my company had been using for years, and that was well known for doing excellent R-985 overhauls, had recently lost a couple of its best mechanics.

The Lycoming factory is AS9100 certified which means that workflow is more driven by process than personnel. The build process is the same for new, rebuilt and overhauled engines. But the personnel are still important, and I liked the idea that my engine would be built by people that turn out about twelve engines a day. Practice makes perfect, as the say.

So far, it’s been rock solid.

Skip

 

[Pinecone]

13 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

It’s sort of nebulous as to what defines the engine or airplane for that matter.

Airplane is the same thing, give me a data plate and a log book and I can build you a Certified Super Cub, every single component can be replaced, but you have to have a logbook and the data plate. I guess the logbook could be reconstructed and you can get a replacement data plate from the manufacturer, so thinking about it I guess maybe all you need is a bill of sale?

I picked Super Cub because they are simple with everything available, but the value is high so people do “repair” them starting with pretty much a logbook and data plate all the time.

We have a guy who does that every year, comes down from Maine every Winter and “repairs” one every year, does beautiful work too. I believe most are sold prior to being finished.

 

I remember reading that all you needed was a data plate and main gear legs and you could have a P-51 built.

[A64Pilot]

4 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I remember reading that all you needed was a data plate and main gear legs and you could have a P-51 built.

It’s based on parts availability, I don’t have a clue what it is for P-51’s but Super Cubs everything is available.

The old war birds rules confuse me. As they were Military aircraft there is no TCDS, can’t be as they were not Certified, so by definition you can’t get a type rating because there is no type to be rated to, yet apparently the FAA requires one? Then the P-51 isn’t a 12,500 lb airplane so it doesn’t need a type rating anyway.

I’m not type rated in the 21,000 lb helicopter I used to fly because as a Military aircraft it’s not Certified, there is no type to be rated to.

So a P-51 can’t be a Certified airplane, it must if they follow their rules be flown as Restricted or some kind of Experimental ticket, but it can’t be Normal or Utility.

FAA often has an unusual application of their rules.

[Pinecone]

Not a type rating, an authorization.

[quote]Vintage & Experimental Aircraft Program

This program standardizes pilot certification in the following U.S. aircraft:

• Vintage Type Certificated aircraft which require a type rating
• Experimental turbine-powered aircraft
• Experimental aircraft with a maximum gross weight in excess of 12,500 pounds, or
• Experimental piston powered aircraft with an engine over 800 HP and a Vne (never exceed speed) greater than 250 knots[/quote]

You were not type rated in the helicopter, since Military does not come under the FARs.  Many of the Military regulations are the same as FARs (cloud clearance, controlled airspace, etc).

[N231BN]

It’s based on parts availability, I don’t have a clue what it is for P-51’s but Super Cubs everything is available.
The old war birds rules confuse me. As they were Military aircraft there is no TCDS, can’t be as they were not Certified, so by definition you can’t get a type rating because there is no type to be rated to, yet apparently the FAA requires one? Then the P-51 isn’t a 12,500 lb airplane so it doesn’t need a type rating anyway.
I’m not type rated in the 21,000 lb helicopter I used to fly because as a Military aircraft it’s not Certified, there is no type to be rated to.
So a P-51 can’t be a Certified airplane, it must if they follow their rules be flown as Restricted or some kind of Experimental ticket, but it can’t be Normal or Utility.
FAA often has an unusual application of their rules.

The FAA issed several Limited Type Certificates for surplus military aircraft(CFR 21.189). Any large aircraft still require a type rating. Some were not issued a LTC and are experimental-exhibition. Any experimental aircraft that is: Turbine Powered, over 12,500 MGW, or piston-powered with more than 800HP requires an "Experimental Authorization." It is similar to a type rating.

Most P-51's are eligible to be limited category so all you need to fly one(besides $$$) is a private with tailwheel, high-performance, and complex endorsements. There is no LTC for a Corsair so it requires an experimental authorization. There is no regulation that describes this but it is required in the operating limitations that are given to an experimental aircraft.

Sorry for the derail Skip.
LTC.pdf

Edited September 16, 2022 by N231BN

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, N231BN said:

 Any large aircraft still require a type rating. 

 

No, the Air Tractor 802 at 16,000 Max gross doesn’t, neither does the Thrush S2R-T660 at 14,150. Both over 12,500 lbs turbine powered.

The Thrush you required an entry in your logbook that I trained you and found you competent, Same for the AT I’m sure.

When you dig just a little you find pretty much every FAR has quite a few exceptions, but these exceptions aren’t called out in one place. Yet an FAR may be a simple statement that is very plain and concise, like you may not fly within 500’ of people structures etc. , but somewhere else you find helicopters are exempt.

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, PT20J said:

My decision to buy a factory engine was influenced by a desire to minimize risk of having issues. There are many fine overhaul shops. However, the quality is heavily dependent on the particular mechanic doing the work

This has become my mantra for any kind of hired work — quality is correlated more to the person doing the work than the business that hired that person.  I have had disgusting work performed by employees of extremely highly regarded businesses.

[N231BN]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

No, the Air Tractor 802 at 16,000 Max gross doesn’t, neither does the Thrush S2R-T660 at 14,150. Both over 12,500 lbs turbine powered.

The Thrush you required an entry in your logbook that I trained you and found you competent, Same for the AT I’m sure.

When you dig just a little you find pretty much every FAR has quite a few exceptions, but these exceptions aren’t called out in one place. Yet an FAR may be a simple statement that is very plain and concise, like you may not fly within 500’ of people structures etc. , but somewhere else you find helicopters are exempt.

Context is everything, I was referring to aircraft with Limited Type Certificates. I am well aware of the exemptions for Restricted Category aircraft, I have an endorsement for the 802.