Potentially getting into a Mooney M20F - what to look for?

[south]

Any common corrosion areas or other model specific areas to be concerned about?

144 hrs on new engine and new prop, powerflow exhaust.  I believe it was recently landed gear up, but has been repaired.

TIA

[TheAv8r]

The tubular steel cage is one of the most common points of corrosion, covered in Mooney SB-208. You have to remove all the interior (or most of it), but checking the cage out is important. Also checking the spar underneath the rear seats. There's a point of common corrosion at the spar cap too, you have to take a few inspection panels off to look at that. 

The recent gear up landing would have me more concerned. Was that done after the new engine and new prop or was the new engine and new prop a consequence of it? If it was done after, how was the repair done? Was Lycoming's procedure for prop strikes followed?

[south]

Thanks...based on the logs the engine and prop were after the gear up...as well as the powerflow exhaust.

[M20F]

36 minutes ago, south said:

Thanks...based on the logs the engine and prop were after the gear up...as well as the powerflow exhaust.

What does done mean?  Major overall, Inspected, IRAN, who did it, etc.  You can take apart a 4000hr engine and put it back exactly how you found it and it is considered “done” for a gear up.

[south]

Major overhaul...although based on logs it does look like they reused cylinders (400 hours on them at time of incident.), yellow tag crank, crank gear, connecting rods, and lifter assemblies (all inspected and certified by Aircraft Specialties), new camshaft, new main and connecting rod bearings.  Overhauled Mags at that time.  Done in 2019 and ~150 hours on engine since.

[gwav8or]

I looked at this aircraft back in May.  Very nice looking bird.  Only observation I really had was that the paint, although it looked fantastic, it appeared to be painted over the original paint job.  I could see the original paint around edges.  I believe around the windows but can't remember for sure.  Biggest reasons I didn't buy it was because I didn't want to spend quite that much at the time and I'm not completely sold on the MT prop, yet.   The owners were very nice and I really enjoyed talking to them.

[M20F]

5 hours ago, south said:

Major overhaul...although based on logs it does look like they reused cylinders (400 hours on them at time of incident.), yellow tag crank, crank gear, connecting rods, and lifter assemblies (all inspected and certified by Aircraft Specialties), new camshaft, new main and connecting rod bearings.  Overhauled Mags at that time.  Done in 2019 and ~150 hours on engine since.

You can’t reuse the cylinders and get a major overhaul, so it would be IRAN at best.  If you are looking to buy a plane you are going to need an AP/I so would find one of those you trust first.  They can help with logbook review, PPI, etc.  You will find a lot of help here but there is only so much the internet can provide. 

[201Steve]

57 minutes ago, M20F said:

You can’t reuse the cylinders and get a major overhaul,

As I’ve found, you can do whatever you want and call it a major overhaul. Or at least, that’s the interpretation of some. And the regs on the matter are clear as mud. 
 

but to your point, it’s pretty common practice from what I’ve seen to simply overhaul the cylinders as part of a major overhaul. I don’t think there’s much other than preference that drives that decision. Certainly not in the regs. 

[carusoam]

11 hours ago, south said:

Any common corrosion areas or other model specific areas to be concerned about?

144 hrs on new engine and new prop, powerflow exhaust.  I believe it was recently landed gear up, but has been repaired.

TIA

 

Kind of a too specific question….

Typically people around here get a pre-purchase inspection done…

That includes a search for corrosion…

 

Since Mooneys are all metal… Mostly all parts are visible…. Behind inspection panels….

There isn’t an always look here kind of place that is unique to Mooneys…

No matter what plane it is…. Be on the look out for corrosion everywhere….

Brand B has unique metal that has made tail rot a deadly problem…

Brand P put steel parts in contact with aluminum parts and caused a significant AD….

Brand C sits out in the sun and rain for decades…. Terrible way to care for a plane… or car… or anything painted and metal…

Finding a Mooney specific mechanic that knows where every nook and cranny is… is better than just a good mechanic…

 

A good PPI before you buy the plane… is better than finding the corrosion after you own it…

 

And the bad news… PPIs are really challenging… some important things have been missed by the best shops….

Be there… get pics and videos while it is all opened up…. Great references for your first year of ownership…. 

PP thoughts only,

-a-

[Utah20Gflyer]

For me I learned the most about my plane during an extensive owner assisted annual.  I got to be a part of taking the plane all apart,  looking at everything, helping fix a few things and then putting it all back together.  I was involved in researching ADs and sourcing parts.  It was a great education on my specific plane and also how to be an involved owner. 

The pre-buy I got was worthless in comparison, but that could be because I picked the wrong person to do it.   I get the argument that an annual isn't a pre-buy but based on my personal experience I would take an annual inspection that you could be a part of over a pre-buy done by some one else who just gives you a report.  I have no idea if what I'm talking about is an option but it's worth considering. 

[carusoam]

When it comes to PPIs…

Everything is an option…. Nothing is required…

Budget dictates much of what gets done or not done…

Risk tolerance, and risk mitigation… often depend on the value of the plane…

Does the plane cost as much as a car… or a house….?

 

My M20C got a very limited PPI… checking for basic health…

My M20R got a more elaborate PPI… testing every radio function to know they were working properly for IR flight…. Ending with an annual…

 

PP examples of things to consider…

Best regards,

-a-

[south]

Been an owner for several years now (PA 28 180) and do all the maintenance on my bird (under the supervision of an AP) and fully understand the PPI (what it is and what it isnt).  The opportunity to move to a mooney and the extra speed is appealing, as it fits roughly the same mission.  I know my plane inside and out and can get top dollar for it now, which pretty much makes the mooney purchase a wash (other than the insurance...geesh), and actually hoping to clear enough to be able to upgrade the GPS.

13 hours ago, gwav8or said:

I looked at this aircraft back in May.  Very nice looking bird.  Only observation I really had was that the paint, although it looked fantastic, it appeared to be painted over the original paint job.  I could see the original paint around edges.  I believe around the windows but can't remember for sure.  Biggest reasons I didn't buy it was because I didn't want to spend quite that much at the time and I'm not completely sold on the MT prop, yet.   The owners were very nice and I really enjoyed talking to them.

What about the MT Prop is giving you doubts?

[M20F]

11 hours ago, 201Steve said:

As I’ve found, you can do whatever you want and call it a major overhaul. Or at least, that’s the interpretation of some. And the regs on the matter are clear as mud. 

 https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

[gwav8or]

56 minutes ago, south said:

Been an owner for several years now (PA 28 180) and do all the maintenance on my bird (under the supervision of an AP) and fully understand the PPI (what it is and what it isnt).  The opportunity to move to a mooney and the extra speed is appealing, as it fits roughly the same mission.  I know my plane inside and out and can get top dollar for it now, which pretty much makes the mooney purchase a wash (other than the insurance...geesh), and actually hoping to clear enough to be able to upgrade the GPS.

What about the MT Prop is giving you doubts?

 

Yep, insurance for me was a shocker!  I passed up a perfect M20F in January because of sticker shock over insurance.  But do not despair, call BWI Fly insurance and ask for Jackie.  She saved me almost $700 over the quote from Assured Partners that I had been using for 7-8 years.

As for the MT prop, I'm not a mechanic, engineer or knowledgeable in any way.  I just don't know much about them at all.  They're probably fantastic and well worth it, idk.

As for the PPI, I was lucky to find a mechanic familiar with Mooneys and that had been to MSC training.  So, I felt a little better about using him.  I spoke with him over the phone and he seemed very honest and straightforward.  He did a PPI on day one, provided me a report with all the issues found and provided a quote to resolve.  If I decided to move forward, he gave me credit for the PPI toward the annual.  I liked that option because I knew the baseline prices for both a PPI and annual going into it.

[Greg Ellis]

51 minutes ago, M20F said:

 https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

That certainly is pretty clear but I don't see in the list that it is mandatory to replace the cylinders.  With everything listed you certainly are overhauling or replacing just about everything but I don't see where you have to replace the cylinders.  Am I missing it?

[M20F]

36 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

That certainly is pretty clear but I don't see in the list that it is mandatory to replace the cylinders.  With everything listed you certainly are overhauling or replacing just about everything but I don't see where you have to replace the cylinders.  Am I missing it?

 Taking cylinders off and just reusing doesn’t work.  I took the original post to be they tore the engine and down and inspected for sudden stop and returned the cylinders untouched.  Either way there is very specific guidance as what qualifies for overhaul.  That would include replacing exhaust valve as example on all the cylinders. 

[Greg Ellis]

9 minutes ago, M20F said:

 Taking cylinders off and just reusing doesn’t work.  I took the original post to be they tore the engine and down and inspected for sudden stop and returned the cylinders untouched.  Either way there is very specific guidance as what qualifies for overhaul.  That would include replacing exhaust valve as example on all the cylinders. 

I agree with you completely.  And from that notice it is extremely thorough.  Just about everything is replaced except for the barrel it seems.

[Marauder]

Any common corrosion areas or other model specific areas to be concerned about?
144 hrs on new engine and new prop, powerflow exhaust.  I believe it was recently landed gear up, but has been repaired.
TIA

Outside of the engine stuff being discussed, now is the time to make sure EVERYTHING on the plane is working. New buyers sometime get tunnel vision and will overlook things that will come back to bite them later.

When the owner says, “Yeah, those factory gauges never worked right, I just use the JPI 830”, don’t be surprised at the annual your IA says those factory gauges are required to be working and the JPI 830 is an advisory gauge. And then you’re stuck with a $500 bill to fix them. I can’t tell you the number of times new owners have come back on this site shell shocked from getting their first annual bill.

Turn the knobs, use the avionics, make sure ALL the lights work. If something isn’t working, you can either renegotiate the price, accept the issue or you walk. Just don’t ignore that some of this stuff can be very very expensive to fix afterwards.


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[M20F]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

I can’t tell you the number of times new owners have come back on this site shell shocked from getting their first annual bill.

There is also a difference between airworthy and recommended.  I cleared about $10K of airworthy in my pre-purchase annual that came off the price.  I added about $10K on that initial and the subsequent annual clearing out for the recommendations that came from my pocket.  
 
This was back before Jimmy and Don got together but I worked through both of them on the purchase (now they are officially together).  I view it as money well spent and minimal in terms of additional expense.  I got a solid plane in solid shape   Once a plane is in good shape it is relatively easy/cheap to keep it so   

The 3rd annual there were a minor thing or two Don missed that got fixed.  Airplanes are complex and even the best miss things.  That should tell you how much amateurs miss when they look.   
 
The logbooks are also critical.  I was missing a 337 for 40+ years that caused me all kinds of issues to finally get resolved.  

[south]

I think total cost of ownership just answered the question for me.  I typically fly 100 hours each year...insurance quotes from 3000 to 3700 annually...I pay 700 annually for my 180.

A&P figures another 300 to 500 in Annual costs (last years annual was $800).

Doing that math, assuming annual stays the same, is 2300 to 3000 extra dollars annually (at $6/gal = 383 to 500 gallons of fuel...@ 10 gal/hour = 38 to 50 hours of flying).

38 to 50 hours (120 kts vs. 145kts) is an additional 950-1250 nautical miles annually...I dont think I do enough long X-Cntry's to justify.

I guess ill stick with my fixed gear for now.

Thanks everyone.

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, south said:

I think total cost of ownership just answered the question for me.  I typically fly 100 hours each year...insurance quotes from 3000 to 3700 annually...I pay 700 annually for my 180.

A&P figures another 300 to 500 in Annual costs (last years annual was $800).

Doing that math, assuming annual stays the same, is 2300 to 3000 extra dollars annually (at $6/gal = 383 to 500 gallons of fuel...@ 10 gal/hour = 38 to 50 hours of flying).

38 to 50 hours (120 kts vs. 145kts) is an additional 950-1250 nautical miles annually...I dont think I do enough long X-Cntry's to justify.

I guess ill stick with my fixed gear for now.

Thanks everyone.

Your insurance will come down as you build time. Right now, I pay about twice what you do for your fixed gear. One thing to consider is hull value affect insurance rates, what is the hull value compared to your current ride?

 

[south]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Your insurance will come down as you build time. Right now, I pay about twice what you do for your fixed gear. One thing to consider is hull value affect insurance rates, what is the hull value compared to your current ride?

 

Hull value are comparable, at least in the current market.

[gwav8or]

Your insurance will come down as you build time. Right now, I pay about twice what you do for your fixed gear. One thing to consider is hull value affect insurance rates, what is the hull value compared to your current ride?
 

When getting quotes over the last 9 months and two different aircraft, I found that hull value didn’t affect the price of the premium. I had two diff aircraft quoted, one with HV of 90k and one at 70k and the quotes came back the same.


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[201Steve]

7 hours ago, M20F said:

 https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

That is Lycoming guidance, not regulation. There are tons of things a MFG calls mandatory, that are simply not complied with regularly-- and it's still legit as far as the FAA is concerned. Let me be clear, I'm not arguing my opinion, I am simply pointing out the reality. You'll need to find an FAA reg that requires new cylinders being required during an engine overhaul to negate what I'm saying, but you won't bc it doesn't exist.

[carusoam]

12 hours ago, south said:

Hull value are comparable, at least in the current market.

We have an awesome insurance guy around here….

If you want speed and efficiency…

Go Mooney!

 

First year of insurance is more expensive than year 2-50….

The first 100hrs you are learning a new platform and the risk of a GU landing is a touch higher than the rest…

When you hit your 80th birthday… you may bump into some ageism related issues.

 

So….

If insurance is a reason to not buy a fast retractable plane…. It would be wise to discuss your insurance needs with Parker….

Parker knows Mooneys and insurance.

Best regards,

-a-