Starter not getting power.

[LANCECASPER]

16 hours ago, kortopates said:

I am going to beg to differ a bit, but if we qualify that to light weight starters then you are so right. But the older heavier starters like the TCM energizers are super reliable and relays very much do fail. I'll also add a number of starters have been replaced due to a failing relay. For example, once a relay starts sticking, it can easily stick "on"; promptly burning out the starter in a few seconds when it goes unnoticed. If the cause isn't recognized a new starter may soon suffer the same consequence. 

You are much more the expert than I am on this. I just have a strong bias leaving a bad taste in my mouth from early Skytec starters on a '96 Bravo that I had especially.

I liked the speed at which it turned when it worked, but as an example once it hung up and damaged the flywheel grounding the airplane for a few weeks. That wasn't cheap. Soon thereafter the starter itself failed and then a little over 200 hours later the next one failed. On the other two Bravos once the failed lightest Skytecs were replaced with the NLEC, no problems. They never failed at a "good" time, always seemed to be the most inconvenient. So if someone ever asked me if I had any luck with a SkyTec 149LS starter on an M20M, I would answer "Yes, if you count bad luck." If I was to buy another M20M that had a 149LS starter, the first thing I would do is replace it with the NLEC version

[kortopates]

36 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

You are much more the expert than I am on this. I just have a string bias leaving a bad taste in my mouth from early Skytec starters on a '96 Bravo that I had especially.

I liked the speed at which it turned when it worked, but as an example once it hung up and damaged the flywheel grounding the airplane for a few weeks. That wasn't cheap. Soon thereafter the starter itself failed and then a little over 200 hours later the next one failed. On the other two Bravos once the failed lightest Skytecs were replaced with the NLEC, no problems. They never failed at a "good" time, always seemed to be the most inconvenient. So if someone ever asked me if I had any luck with a SkyTec 149LS starter on an M20M, I would answer "Yes, if you count bad luck." If I was to buy another M20M that had a 149LS starter, the first thing I would do is replace it with the NLEC version

Wow, you did have much more than your fair share of bad luck with Skytec starters! The light weight ones have gotten a bad rap; especially for creating damage such as what you described and also similarly to TCM starter adaptors. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

This is why my first question was "How did they test that there's no power to the starter?". If some kid at the FBO on the weekend tested to see if if the starter had power, did he know enough to realize that it comes through a relay? Much higher chance it's the starter than the relay. In 37 years of flying I've had a few starters go bad, never replaced a starter relay. On the three Bravos when I bought them they all had the lightest weight Skytec on them, all three went bad. After changing them out with something heavier duty the problems went away. My experience is that the lifespan of that lightest weight Skytec on a TIO-540-AF1B is about 200-300 hours, especially if you're operating in very hot climate.

He said it was the owner of the engine shop. In such a case I would assume that the power lead was removed from the starter and tested with a multimeter while the key was turned to the start position.  That’s the safe way to do it.  It’s also possible he felt comfortable laying a multimeter on the terminal without removing the lead given that the starter wasn’t turning.

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

I am going to beg to differ a bit, but if we qualify that to light weight starters then you are so right. But the older heavier starters like the TCM energizers are super reliable and relays very much do fail. I'll also add a number of starters have been replaced due to a failing relay. For example, once a relay starts sticking, it can easily stick "on"; promptly burning out the starter in a few seconds when it goes unnoticed. If the cause isn't recognized a new starter may soon suffer the same consequence. 

My Skytec 149NL has been very reliable. I have never had a starter of any kind fail outright. It’s always given signs of its impending failure. Agree that relays are normally very reliable. The one on my airplane is 55 years old and still going strong. In automotive applications I’ve had a number of relay failures over the years. In college I drove an old Mercedes. In the summertime I sometimes had to pull the fuel pump relay out and bang it on the ground to get underway. When that stopped working I made a jumper wire (Fortunately I never forgot to pull it after shut down).

[kortopates]

35 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

He said it was the owner of the engine shop. In such a case I would assume that the power lead was removed from the starter and tested with a multimeter while the key was turned to the start position.  That’s the safe way to do it.  It’s also possible he felt comfortable laying a multimeter on the terminal without removing the lead given that the starter wasn’t turning.

My Skytec 149NL has been very reliable. I have never had a starter of any kind fail outright. It’s always given signs of its impending failure. Agree that relays are normally very reliable. The one on my airplane is 55 years old and still going strong. In automotive applications I’ve had a number of relay failures over the years. In college I drove an old Mercedes. In the summertime I sometimes had to pull the fuel pump relay out and bang it on the ground to get underway. When that stopped working I made a jumper wire (Fortunately I never forgot to pull it after shut down).

True, not all Skytec starters. Many Lyc IO-360 owners have had great trouble free service from their Skytec starters. I think the reliability issues have been much more pronounced with the larger 6 cyl engines.  Tapping a solenoid or relay works more often than it doesn't.  But of course, just not a reliable solution with an airplane.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by kortopates

[Shadrach]

24 minutes ago, kortopates said:

True, not all Skytec starters. Many Lyc IO-360 owners have had great trouble free service from their Skytec starters. I think the reliability issues have been much more pronounced with the larger 6 cyl engines.  Tapping a solenoid or relay works more often than it doesn't.  But of course, just not a reliable solution with an airplane.  

I didn’t know they had a reputation for poor reliability. Surprises me that the Bravo would eat starters faster. One would think life would be easier turning lower compression version of the same size cylinders.

[kortopates]

36 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I didn’t know they had a reputation for poor reliability. Surprises me that the Bravo would eat starters faster. One would think life would be easier turning lower compression version of the same size cylinders.

Surprisingly, the Bravo isn't as low a compression ratio as most other Turbo's at 8.0:1 CR! The higher HP Lyc TIO-540's are much lower at 7.3:1 which is even lower than most turbo's at 7.5:1 CR. 

But yes, still lower than a 8.7:1 Mooney

Edited July 25, 2022 by kortopates

[PilotX]

They tested for power at the starter with the master on and the key turned to start.

[LANCECASPER]

31 minutes ago, PilotX said:

They tested for power at the starter with the master on and the key turned to start.

Very brave . . Lol