Non Flying Mooney

[gwav8or]

Would you risk purchasing an F model that hasn't flown in "2-3 years"?  I talked to an owner of a '75 F and he said it hasn't flown in 2-3 years.  ADS-B data seems to suggest it hasn't flown in over 4 years.  He didn't say whether he had started it or not.  I won't say what his asking price is but it's up there.  I told him I'm not interested since it's sat for so long.  I know Lycoming engines don't like to sit, it's the worst thing for them.  I mentioned pulling a jug and he said that's not something he would allow.  I wouldn't either.  

[KSMooniac]

I wouldn't, unless you get it for a price that supports an overhaul without getting too upside down. At least that is fixable... If you really like it, check for corrosion first before getting too far along.

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[kortopates]

Not if I was buying it to fly it! Unless the engine is treated as runout and priced accordingly, in which case its an opportunity for a buyer to get the engine overhaul they want.

But aircraft that have been sitting for years it will have more issues than just the engine. There is a lot more info to consider such as if it was hangared all that time in a reasonably dry climate or on ramp. Also if had annuals during that time and their scope.  But ground running an engine to exercise it worse that not running it - it doesn't burn off the trapped moisture but rather adds to it.

People usually buy these projects because they believe they're getting a plane at a discount when in reality the first couple years of ownership expenses make them the most expensive choices.  

[MikeOH]

^^^ THIS ^^^

Additionally, ask yourself if you are buying to fly, or buying to have a project?

My most important criteria when I was shopping was recency and frequency of use.  The PO of my plane owned it for 13 years and consistently put 100 hours a year on it.  It's been 100% dispatch reliable over the past 5 years I've owned it.

[gwav8or]

I’m not going to buy this one. Period. Sitting that long is no bueno. I don’t want that much of a project. I want to fly.


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[RLCarter]

When I purchased my “E” it had been sitting for several years. Once I opened it ALL up for my A&P /IA for the prebuy, I made a list of everything I thought it needed and then compared it with his…. Working several hours a day (which will turn up things as well) and spending just north of 10k on part it was ready to fly. I wasn’t looking for a project but it was on the field and I was willing to roll the dice. 

[Guest]

Let’s face it, buying any airplane is a gamble.  A PPI can only find so much, most maintainers don’t have X-ray vision or a Chrystal ball.  It might be a good airplane and you might be lucky, it might also be a huge frustration.  I’ve seen young factory engines fail early and old ones defy logic and go on for ever.

Clarence

[Yetti]

Florida coast = no.   Inland dry environment = maybe probably    You are already thinking about buying a 40 year old piece of machinery with 1940s engine technology.   So what's a couple of years of inactivity mean?   I had to replace my 48 year old voltage regulator.   but it did not fail because of use or disuse.   It's just 48 years old. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Yetti

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, gwav8or said:

I’m not going to buy this one. Period.

Good decision.  Free might be too much.

[carusoam]

Re-wording the question may help…

1) There are people looking to buy this type of plane around here….

2) Idle planes are not for first time buyers….

3) There are plenty of people around here that would buy this plane for various reasons….

4) The question that is important…. Are you like the people that would buy this plane?

5) People that are not likely to buy a plane that has been sitting….

• First time plane buyers
• people on a CB budget, an engine OH is a common requirement for Lycoming IO360s that have been sitting
• Engine OHs are an expensive way to start your first ownership.
• People that prefer to purchase a mid-time engine so they can get a decade of flying before OHing the engine…

6) Idle planes are good for people with less limited budgets….

People that want to build a plane to meet their desires… often starting with a good airframe…. And not much more… and building the equivalent of a new plane…   Which equals a new plane price in the end…

 

If you are a first time buyer, on a limited budget, looking to fly without replacing expensive items… welcome to the CB club! 

The CB club is more likely to skip a plane that has been sitting and opt for one that flys regularly…

Are you part of the CB club?

Some people have joined the CB club for two reasons…

• One, they want to be in the club…
• two, they have to be in the club…

Do you want to build a forever-plane out of this one?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

The hard part of selecting a low cost plane…

There are some that are too low cost… that will require expensive upgrades to get flying safely….

Midrange costs… that fly safely but have paint, interior, and instrument panel short comings…..

Expensive costs… Highly updated in many ways….

 

The low cost planes attract many people…

It becomes disappointing as they learn what they have done….

Best to ask the questions prior to pulling the trigger….

 

My first plane sat for more than a year at my home drome prior to purchase, in the days before MS… I’m glad I bought it. I got mostly lucky….  
 

Go M20C!

Best regards,

-a-

[gwav8or]

OK what is the CB club?

I’m not a first time buyer. This will be my 3rd plane in 12 years. Hopefully the last in many years unless my wife will let me buy a second! My first was a Cherokee 140. Ended up having to do a top end after about 6 years of ownership.

I’m not necessarily afraid of needing an OH. But what he’s asking is more than I’m willing to pay. It’s not that I can’t pay it, it’s just more than I’d want invested in this one.


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[gwav8or]

NEVERMIND! I figured out the CB club. I’m more of a TB. I don’t want to spend $$ that I don’t need too or I don’t want to spend more than something is worth.


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[Yetti]

The purchase price is the least expensive part of owning a plane.   As far as sitting even if they fly 100 hours a year.  There are 2000 hour in a work year  (50 weeks * 8 hours a day)  So in theory all planes are "sitting"

I would be just checking to see when the cam was last replaced.   If it is a mid 90s cam those seem to be the ones with the problems.

[Marauder]

I’m not going to buy this one. Period. Sitting that long is no bueno. I don’t want that much of a project. I want to fly.


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From my beliefs (and I know others share this belief), I think there something with the metallurgy of when the engine was made that causes some of these engines not to do well sitting. I know of 2 Mooney’s that sat for years with first run 70s built engines and they are still going strong. And I know of others who had rebuilt a from the 90s and early 2000s that started having issues sitting.

Your safest bet is to consider it as run out, negotiate a price accordingly and hope that the engine continues to run well.

There are other issues to consider when looking at a plane that sits for a period of time. Was it stored in a decent environment? You’ll be amazed how fast mice take up residence.

Here is a picture of the remnants of a mouse nest found in my Kubota tractor that was run 2 days earlier!



I heard some really good advice from a guy recently who has owned 13 airplanes. He said, “look for an airplane that has been loved”. Sage advice.

There will be telltale signs of a “loved” airplane. Has the plane been modernized at all? Are routine maintenance items being done over the course of ownership (or do you only find entries of repairs at annuals)?

I think others have mentioned this before, but buying the plane is the cheapest part of airplane ownership. I can’t tell you how many times we have seen guys come on the site, ecstatic about buying their first plane only to see them come back after the purchase with issues that are causing them financial hardship. The key is to find the best plane you can and have enough money available when it isn’t. Good luck.



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[Shadrach]

53 minutes ago, Marauder said:

From my beliefs (and I know others share this belief), I think there something with the metallurgy of when the engine was made that causes some of these engines not to do well sitting. I know of 2 Mooney’s that sat for years with first run 70s built engines and they are still going strong. And I know of others who had rebuilt a from the 90s and early 2000s that started having issues sitting.

Your safest bet is to consider it as run out, negotiate a price accordingly and hope that the engine continues to run well.

There are other issues to consider when looking at a plane that sits for a period of time. Was it stored in a decent environment? You’ll be amazed how fast mice take up residence.

Here is a picture of the remnants of a mouse nest found in my Kubota tractor that was run 2 days earlier!



I heard some really good advice from a guy recently who has owned 13 airplanes. He said, “look for an airplane that has been loved”. Sage advice.

There will be telltale signs of a “loved” airplane. Has the plane been modernized at all? Are routine maintenance items being done over the course of ownership (or do you only find entries of repairs at annuals)?

I think others have mentioned this before, but buying the plane is the cheapest part of airplane ownership. I can’t tell you how many times we have seen guys come on the site, ecstatic about buying their first plane only to see them come back after the purchase with issues that are causing them financial hardship. The key is to find the best plane you can and have enough money available when it isn’t. Good luck.



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Sound advice.  I am the owner of one of those early run aircraft that has been loved (always hangared) but sometimes neglected (non-use for extended periods). Engine was overhauled in 1999 after 32 years and 1850rs. During the mid 90s it sometimes flew less than 5hrs a year. At overhaul, all internals were serviceable and the components were sent out for overhaul prior to being put back into service.  It flew 320 hrs in the next 2 years post overhaul and then sat relatively unused between 2003 and 2006.  I started flying it frequently in 06.  In 2010 the engine was removed for a crankcase crack. All internals were once again found to be serviceable so the case was overhauled and the engine reassembled with resurfaced lifters (cheap insurance). 12 years later it is still running strong on 55 year old internals with about 1300SMOH and 600ish since it was opened for the case overhaul. It shows no signs of deterioration thus far...I am very confident in the engine but aware that there are no guarantees that things won't take a turn in the other direction.

[T. Peterson]

Five months ago I bought a 1979 K that had sat in a New Mexico hangar for 6 years. I bought it through Jimmy Garrison based on his reputation in the Mooney community. He put it through a Savvy (sp?) inspection, and his quote to me was, “It’s not a perfect airplane, but it’s a solid airplane.” I would say his assessment is spot on. My biggest gripe is an annoying oil leak. I replaced all the push rod seals but it still leaks somewhere. It is going to Don Maxwells for an annual next month. I am sure he can get to the bottom of it.

We take the airplane for a trip about once a month and so far the dispatch reliability is 100%. Remember “solid, but not perfect”? I expected to have to spend some money on it. Even if this annual is 12000.00 it will be cheaper than the latest offerings on Controller.

The bottom line is that Jimmy Garrison is both incredibly competent and honest. I would certainly give him a call if I was in the market.

Torrey

[LANCECASPER]

59 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

My biggest gripe is an annoying oil leak. I replaced all the push rod seals but it still leaks somewhere.

Airplanes are very possessive of their owners. We all consider oil leaks just their way of marking their territory.

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Five months ago I bought a 1979 K that had sat in a New Mexico hangar for 6 years. I bought it through Jimmy Garrison based on his reputation in the Mooney community. He put it through a Savvy (sp?) inspection, and his quote to me was, “It’s not a perfect airplane, but it’s a solid airplane.” I would say his assessment is spot on. My biggest gripe is an annoying oil leak. I replaced all the push rod seals but it still leaks somewhere. It is going to Don Maxwells for an annual next month. I am sure he can get to the bottom of it.

We take the airplane for a trip about once a month and so far the dispatch reliability is 100%. Remember “solid, but not perfect”? I expected to have to spend some money on it. Even if this annual is 12000.00 it will be cheaper than the latest offerings on Controller.

The bottom line is that Jimmy Garrison is both incredibly competent and honest. I would certainly give him a call if I was in the market.

Torrey

Glad its working out real well so far. But I am sure your aware 5 months is too soon to know if it may still suffer any ill effects from sitting for an extended period like that. But good things are that TCM is not known for lifter spalling like Lycoming engines are and a big plus with your engine is you can inspect the lifters and cam easily without splitting the case; with just the same amount of effort you went to replace the push rod housing seals. But if it happens, it's common for engines to not make metal till a year to 18 months after they were brought back into service. 

The bottom line is that no one can predict how a plane and engine will fair after siting for some time. For that matter even one that has been flying regularly could throw a rod tomorrow, but with much less chance. So we mitigate the risks as best we can and then take take the gamble or look for another one. Hope yours continues to work out well.

[McMooney]

On 7/17/2022 at 6:05 PM, gwav8or said:

Would you risk purchasing an F model that hasn't flown in "2-3 years"?  I talked to an owner of a '75 F and he said it hasn't flown in 2-3 years.  ADS-B data seems to suggest it hasn't flown in over 4 years.  He didn't say whether he had started it or not.  I won't say what his asking price is but it's up there.  I told him I'm not interested since it's sat for so long.  I know Lycoming engines don't like to sit, it's the worst thing for them.  I mentioned pulling a jug and he said that's not something he would allow.  I wouldn't either.  

Price it as run-out, if he bites

,  get it annualled, make sure there are NO airframe corrosion issues and AD's are good.  Corrosion is the killer, everything else can be fixed.

fly it till the engine goes then rebuild.  win/win

 

[T. Peterson]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Glad its working out real well so far. But I am sure your aware 5 months is too soon to know if it may still suffer any ill effects from sitting for an extended period like that. But good things are that TCM is not known for lifter spalling like Lycoming engines are and a big plus with your engine is you can inspect the lifters and cam easily without splitting the case; with just the same amount of effort you went to replace the push rod housing seals. But if it happens, it's common for engines to not make metal till a year to 18 months after they were brought back into service. 

The bottom line is that no one can predict how a plane and engine will fair after siting for some time. For that matter even one that has been flying regularly could throw a rod tomorrow, but with much less chance. So we mitigate the risks as best we can and then take take the gamble or look for another one. Hope yours continues to work out well.

Me too!!!

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, kortopates said:

a big plus with your engine is you can inspect the lifters and cam easily without splitting the case; with just the same amount of effort you went to replace the push rod housing seals

Any experience with this kind of inspection on a TSIO-520-NB (permold)?

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Any experience with this kind of inspection on a TSIO-520-NB (permold)?

same, just bigger cylinders

[Jsno]

Having bought one that sat 4 years in Arizona, I would pass.  On the flight home my cam and tappets ate each other.  Overhauling now is difficult because the machine shops are backed up up to a year and some of the parts are difficult to find.  Up to a year for new lycoming.  If you want to fly spend a little more up front.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Any experience with this kind of inspection on a TSIO-520-NB (permold)?

Here is a Continental SB on the subject of lifters and camshaft issues.

http://www.tcmlink.com/pdf2/SID05-1B.pdf

Clarence