M20J vs M20K

[N201MKTurbo]

11 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I believe the OP was interested in if he could operate safely at gross weight and 10,500 DA.

Is that still a resounding "YES??"

It is a 9000 foot runway at an elevation of 8000 ft. I haven’t actually looked at the takeoff charts, but I think it will work.

Telluride would be more challenging. It is at an elevation of 9000 ft+, but nobody freaks out about it because it is on a plateau, not in a valley. Well sort of a blind canyon. Only a fool would try to depart to the east, which is what got a Bo a few years ago.

Edited July 11, 2022 by N201MKTurbo

[philip_g]

35 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is a 9000 foot runway at an elevation of 8000 ft. I haven’t actually looked at the takeoff charts, but I think it will work.

Telluride would be more challenging. It is at an elevation of 9000 ft+, but nobody freaks out about it because it is on a plateau, not in a valley. Well sort of a blind canyon. Only a fool would try to depart to the east, which is what got a Bo a few years ago.

Tex is a piece of cake. Now a touch and go at sbs... That's a little more fun.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, philip_g said:

Tex is a piece of cake. Now a touch and go at sbs... That's a little more fun.

It is the STOL written at the ends of the runway that’s your first clue. I can still turn off at mid field.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It is the STOL written at the ends of the runway that’s your first clue. I can still turn off at mid field.

I just looked at it on Google maps. It doesn’t say STOL any more, and it looks like they lengthened it. The last time I landed there was about 10 years ago. Back in the 80s I flew my F there almost weekly. I serviced the airlines computers back then.

[William A]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I will agree a turbo makes these things easier, but that wasn’t the question. The question was: can you safely operate out of Angel Fire with a NA Mooney? The answer is yes! 

Yes thank you N201MKTurbo! For my potential once a year scenario I was curious if it’s possible to get out fully loaded. If so I will go non turbo for the 90% local flying I will do and hopefully have less upkeep and slightly less cost operating. Also probably won’t go full fuel and fill up after getting over the ridges heading back East. Just nice to know it’s not a deal breaker for me and my first Mooney. 

[EricJ]

26 minutes ago, William A said:

Yes thank you N201MKTurbo! For my potential once a year scenario I was curious if it’s possible to get out fully loaded. If so I will go non turbo for the 90% local flying I will do and hopefully have less upkeep and slightly less cost operating. Also probably won’t go full fuel and fill up after getting over the ridges heading back East. Just nice to know it’s not a deal breaker for me and my first Mooney. 

If you're careful, as you suggest, you should be fine.   Living in AZ, we have frequent high DA opportunities to deal with.   I've done some high DA takeoffs at or near gross weight and you just have to be ready for it and have a plan or two.   If I had to do it all the time I might prefer a turbo, but as you say, for the occasional high-DA mission its okay and I prefer not to have one the rest of the time, especially when its hot at low altitude.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I've owned both an M20J and M20K.  The M20K offers some extra flexibility with the turbo and some extra speed at altitudes over 8000' or so.

Winter flying in Angel Fire carries its own perils no matter what Mooney you're flying as the winds in that region can be substantial.  Be cautious with an M20J or M20K at max weight.  An M20J on a cold and calm day might be ok.

In the summer fully loaded, the weather needs to be perfect early in the morning or mid-evening for a fully loaded M20J.  I probably wouldn't do it.

An M20K at AXX is better...if the winds and temps allow.

The concern isn't getting off the ground...its the performance once airborne.

Proper planning is a required...

Outbound to NM...be willing to drive or stop short of your destination

Returning to TX...be willing to delay your return or catch an airliner/rental car home if your schedule requires.

[A64Pilot]

Honestly it can be relatively inexpensive to ship luggage, especially for the rare flight, plus you have the added advantage of the luggage being at the Hotel and no need to hump it through the FBO etc., it’s actually nice to travel with just one small bag of toiletries just in case.

No need to be in a heavy airplane, assuming it’s just a couple or maybe a couple with small kids

Had a friend who did air shows in his Pitts, he always shipped luggage, cause not much is going in a Pitts.

[M20F]

16 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Maule NA airplane over the Canadian rockies, I believe a J model and the Maule are Certified to 18K?

But if you do that often the K model would be better of course, I mean that’s it’s Forte. But if you leave the O2 bottle at home or don’t even own one then it’s not likely you need a K.

I believe it’s really that simple isn’t it?

 

Step up to an Executive, mine gets to FL250 in 52 minutes.  
 

 

[Fly Boomer]

15 minutes ago, M20F said:

Step up to an Executive, mine gets to FL250 in 52 minutes.  

Anybody have time to climb numbers for a 252?
How about a Rocket?

[dzeleski]

Ill add my .02 as a J owner....

The J is a 4 cylinder with a 25k overhaul. The K+ are all nearly double that price for an OH.

Do I want a K, M, or R? Yes and maybe one day. I've thought about upgrading probably 100 times since I bought it but every time I realize I dont really need that performance. I regularly take 4 people and 50gals for lunch or dinner at or near sea level (<5000 feet DA). I also regularly take overnight trips with 2-3 people and bags with 50-64 gals.

I plan on flying down to the Bahamas this year after mooney summit, ill hopefully be going to Osh in a few weeks, and ill also hopefully be getting out to Aspen in the fall (with mountain training) as my SOs family has a house there. All of this will be done with 2 people, 2 cats and various levels of fuel to make it happen.

What im getting at is if the J covers 90% of your needs and a commercial ticket or waiting for the right weather/air covers the 10% is it actually worth an airplane that costs far more then 10% of the cost of a good J? My IR checkride is next week and maybe flying into actual (14 hours of actual so far) more often will change my mind on this but at the moment I cant push that much more money into an airplane that I wont use to its full capacity.

For context my J is an early 1977 and has 1009lbs of useful, dual G5, GFC500, IFD 440. I would have to spend a significant amount (50-100k) more to get an equally capable K, M, R especially in the avionics department.

[geoffb]

same answer as always to these questions regarding the no-mission mission, Skylane

Sure it does it all, but is that really what you want?  Insurance, capability, maintenance, resale.....win.

 

[philip_g]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Anybody have time to climb numbers for a 252?
How about a Rocket?

I mean, my rocket would maintain better than 1500 off the ground and back off to maybe 1k in the high teens.

[geoffb]

At modest weights, full power and 120 kts indicated, my 262 conversion will keep close to 1,000 fpm through 190, no personal data higher than that.  But with critical altitude of 230, I'd expect it to keep up through that at least.

[M20F]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Anybody have time to climb numbers for a 252?
How about a Rocket?

I would add, I get around 750 FPM blended light (and this flight was in the winter so dense air) at 120 MPH IAS doing 26/26 till around 16000.   Then it is pitch down to keep the cylinders cool (it will keep climbing good FPM but cooling becomes limiting).  Mine likes FL190 (160-170kt TAS), at FL210 it climbs really slow to keep cool, and the controls are slop.  
 

I got 20/27 at FL250 and was running 12GPH to keep cylinders cool.  Other then the rudder everything else was mush. 

It was also winter so I almost froze to death because the muffler shroud on a RayJay sucks and produces zero heat.  In the end I went from somewhere in NW Indiana to KECP about 30 minutes faster as I outclimbed a 40KT headwind into a 2KT tailwind and grabbed 25kts more TAS.  I still had ice on the inside of the windows when I landed   It was almost 90F in KECP   

Fun to do.  I like FL190 eastbound out of KTOR every fall.  One day I hope to hit 300kts GS on that trip.  

[Skates97]

16 hours ago, William A said:

Yes thank you N201MKTurbo! For my potential once a year scenario I was curious if it’s possible to get out fully loaded. If so I will go non turbo for the 90% local flying I will do and hopefully have less upkeep and slightly less cost operating. Also probably won’t go full fuel and fill up after getting over the ridges heading back East. Just nice to know it’s not a deal breaker for me and my first Mooney. 

Just don't go fully loaded, the fuel is the variable. Take enough fuel for your fuel stop plus reserves, for myself I always want to be on the ground with 10 gallons on board.

We have a house in Pagosa Springs and PSO sits at 7,663'. The DA's are often above 10k but my M20D with it's 180 horses gets us in and out. I always make sure I'm a few hundred under gross.

[Schllc]

I’m heavily biased for a turbo so I say the k, bravo or an acclaim. 
It’s kind of like growing up eating sirloin and calling that steak. 
Then one day someone serves you a waygu ribeye. 
Do you need to eat that to eat a steak?  Nope. 
But, every time you eat one you will think about it…

Turbos provide options you just don’t have in a NA plane. 
Do you “need” it?  Probably not, but once you have it you won’t enjoy life without it..

maybe it’s better to not try the waygu. 

[dzeleski]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

maybe it’s better to not try the waygu. 

Dont have friends with more capable airplanes either. And definitely dont go flying with them. Ignorance is bliss in this regard lol. If I didnt meet a few people with twins or newer Mooneys I dont think the upgrade bug would have ever hit.

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, M20F said:

Mine likes FL190 (160-170kt TAS), at FL210 it climbs really slow to keep cool, and the controls are slop.  

Stunning numbers for an M20F.  Go high; go fast.  I'm somewhat surprised the controls are mushy at 170 true.  Someone around here said he had his Rocket up to 30.  Probably experienced something similar.  Too high for me.

[William A]

How much is it typically to rebuild/replace the m20j 200hp engine? Specifically the 1984 factory/stock engine? Prop?

[ArtVandelay]

How much is it typically to rebuild/replace the m20j 200hp engine? Specifically the 1984 factory/stock engine? Prop?

5 years ago, $30000 to overhaul engine and prop.

Overhaul prices can vary a bit, some replaced magnetos with new vs overhauling for example.

[toto]

8 hours ago, William A said:

How much is it typically to rebuild/replace the m20j 200hp engine? Specifically the 1984 factory/stock engine? Prop?

This is always highly variable. If you go with a field overhaul at a no-name shop, you could probably get an OH done for 15k. A factory overhaul could be 30k. A “named” field OH would be somewhere in between. 

[Perri Dyer]

On 7/9/2022 at 9:34 PM, MikeOH said:

@William A

Carusoam is referring to @Parker_Woodruff.

I've been purchasing insurance through him for the past three years and have been very happy with price and service!

I have been to @Parker_Woodruff website, filled out the contact form, and sent a direct email, no response. So hopefully he reaches out here. Not the best first impression for me so far. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

11 minutes ago, Perri Dyer said:

I have been to @Parker_Woodruff website, filled out the contact form, and sent a direct email, no response. So hopefully he reaches out here. Not the best first impression for me so far. 

Hi Perri,

I'm not seeing a contact form from the site, but we just did an update. I'll message you here for your contact info.

For what it's worth, my spam email box has been full of every single scammer trying to sell me stolen marketing lists from Oshkosh, so I apologize if your email ended up there and I hastily deleted it!

Parker

[A64Pilot]

Truth is we all are constrained by our finances, or none of us would consider these tiny little piston airplanes for traveling if we weren’t. I think a PC-12 would be one of my airplanes if I were not financially constrained, once you fly turbines for awhile pistons are a pain, so forget the silly turbo and go turbine or jet. 80% of my flight time is turbines, 0% of it in aircraft that I owned.

The J can do most all realistic missions for a fraction of the cost of a turbo or turbine, that’s it’s niche. For those of you who honestly believe that turbo’s don’t increase costs your confused, just as the gentleman who thinks it doesn’t cost but a little more to fly a twin. Fly either long enough and you’ll learn, airplanes don’t cost much until something breaks, the more complex, the more stuff that can break, the greater the cost. Constant speed props save money, until you need a governor or the prop starts leaking. Complexity = money

Ref climbs to FL 250, Matters not at all to me because I never have any use to be there or even close, Probably would do it if pressurized but O2 is a pain, and I have zero need, my O2 bottle hasn’t left the locker for years. For the same $$$ I can fly my J for a lot more hours than most aircraft, a whole lot more than if it had a turbo, that’s what the J’s niche is.

Above 180 you need to be on a mask, is it worth it? It’s not to me.

As I said if you need to do hot and high, let Fedex or UPS carry your luggage, don’t short yourself fuel, a couple of times a year shipping luggage is cheap, but you may get used to it, not schlepping bags is something that’s easy to get used to.