Why is Elevator Control so Heavy?

[ArtVandelay]

I continue to trim in the flare all the way to eventual stall and when I do touch down there is very little back pressure on the yoke.  After landing I have to trim down quite a bit to get back to takeoff settings. 

That can make go arounds a handful as you’ll need to fight it till you get it re-trimmed. I spilt the difference, also prevents the problem of the trim binding in full trim position.

[PT20J]

54 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Yes, it is heavy in the flare.

In that case, I would methodically follow @M20Doc’s suggestions.

[Jsno]

I found mine the same way with two people in the front.  It also was very tough to flare on landing.  I have the engine part for overhaul now but when finished, I'm going to spend the bucks and get the travel boards and check the rig.  After looking at mine it's obvious that someone has misrigged it.

 

[M20F]

First two replies address everything.  Either set trim correctly or get the plan fixed. 

[Bartman]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

That can make go arounds a handful as you’ll need to fight it till you get it re-trimmed. I spilt the difference, also prevents the problem of the trim binding in full trim position.

I agree if you don’t expect it this can be a real handful and my transition CFI owned a Mooney and knew this and many other well known Mooney-specific issues. He made sure I knew about slow fight characteristics and stalls with the wing drop if uncoordinated, approach by the numbers both light and near gross, the bounce, the porpoise, the go-around, and other common scenarios. I go up every year with my CFI to keep me on my toes and also to support the local independent CFI, and we do several but not all of these scenarios at every review. 
 

I like the way she handles in the flare as I continue to trim up, and I know how she responds when I add power. I had my jack screw rebuilt by LASAR and addressed after @Amelia had her incident. Discussed it with new CFI and one of my past flight reviews included a go-around with simulated stuck trim. I pushed  the yoke all the way around the pattern. Not comfortable but doable, but I expected it. 

[cliffy]

Two items come to mind-

1) Sounds like a way FWD CG and/or stabilizer/elevators not set correctly in static conditions according to the TCDS  and the trim indicator  Do a good W&B and see where your CG sits with that loading.  My bet? WAY FWD 

2) Initial stabilizer pitch settings  - Someone who KNOWS how to check and set the elevator and stabilizer angles properly while on jacks to get perfect level fore and aft is needed. Elevator rigging boards are needed to do it correctly. Until you verify this everything else is just a guess.  All the settings are  contained in the TCDS If they aren't correct and you go by just what the indicator says you might be way off in trim for lift off speed. 

 Once the proper angles have been determined you might try trimming for 75 MPH on final and leave it there throughout the flare and landing. 

Go back and make a takeoff with that same setting (don't reset trim from last landing) and DON'T retract the gear. Just fly out with the gear down and see what you feel on pitch  Once beyond 80-85 MPH trim down to control pitch as it will be going up.

I say don't retract the gear because the gear moves the CG aft as it retracts, pushing the nose up more on the initial climb out.  Not what we want for this first T/O

Come around and again trim for 75 on final and leave it there. 

 Do another T/O and retract the gear normally and see what you feel. Be aware of your speed and don't let it drop below 75. Trim down as necessary as speed increases. 

If it was in trim at 75 landing it should be in trim at 75 on takeoff. (just after lift off). In other words light pressure to lift off at 65 accelerating.  Pulling the gear up pulls the nose up with aft shifting CG.  Accelerating to more than 75 will raise the nose.

If its trimmed for around 75  the elevator pressures should not  be too high for a decent landing flare slowly decreasing engine power in the flare. UNLESS you try to keep the nose up until you lose elevator effectives (riding on just the main tires) and the nose wheel drops.  Aft CG is way easier than FWD CG.   At all changes with varying loads. Remember that as you push or pull the control wheel you are compressing the bungee springs and making it harder to move the more you displace the controls. That's normal.

I know way detailed explanation but maybe someone in the future might benefit from it.

[Guest]

If the controls are binding per the OP’s post(#3) that has to be looked at first, weight and balance may be a secondary issue.  A forward C of G doesn’t cause binding flight controls unless the airframe is bending under this load.

Clarence

[MBDiagMan]

Okay, time for the follow up:

First of all the quality AND quantity of replies in this thread is awesonme and very much appreciated.

My friend who was helping with my landings had never landed my Mooney and had never flown a Mooney.  He was alarmed by how heavy it was and got me thinking that maybe it had gotten heavier, thus this thread.  When I started investigating, another experienced pilot who flies every kind of aircraft under the Sun from warbirds including WWII fighters, cargo planes and light bombers to a Citation, King Air and his own Eagle aerobatic plane and Luscombe.  He had flown several Mooney’s and the only thing he found was that moving the yoke, was causing the cowl flap control to move.  I found what was causing that and took care of it.  

Another friend at the airport who has an unmodified F that is the same as mine minus the aerodynamic modifications let me get in his on the ground and it felt about the same.  The owner of the other Mooney also thought they were the same.   My friend the warbird pilot tried them both and thought they were the same.   He went with me today and started with some steep turns and stalls.  He had me do a steep 360 with his coat covering the flight instruments (after the turn he removed the coat to reveal that I had gained over 100 feet,) but I did all these maneuvers to his satisfaction and even praise.

We then started on the landings by setting up the glide at about 90MPH and 450 FPM descent.  Taking it down, pulling power and bleeding off speed until it settles in.  I did two out of three really well while one out of three I was letting the nose drop when I pulled power.  I know this method is old hat to you Mooney guys, but learning to fly tailwheel and the majority of my time gliding in the 140 with no power makes this a distinct transition for me.  I think I’m there now.  I just need practice.

In the course of doing all this I asked him if he wanted to take off or land to see how heavy it is and he said there was no need.

Again, I so much appreciate all the responses and the ongoing assistance from the membership here.

 

[carusoam]

Great follow-up MBD!

Now you know the plane is working the way it should be….

If you want the controls to FEEL lighter…. 
 

The local gym has a row boat simulator… 

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

I probably need to be on the row boat simulator now anyway.  What led me to my electric gear F from a beautiful manual gear C was an injured shoulder in 2018.  At that point I had been doing quite a bit of exercise for a seventy something guy.  My exercise took a considerable decrease at that point.

As a follow up to my follow up a few posts previous, weather kept me from flying most of last week, but I flew with one of my instructor friends yesterday that has been helping with this.  That session seemed to drive the new method into my brain pretty well.  Of course once I gain a little confidence, I’m sure to botch a landing in front of an audience.  My Mooney flying skill had kind of plateaued, but I think I might be taking a step forward.

In many ways my F is easier to fly than my little taildragger, but I had kind of gotten hung up trying to get landings I felt good about.  I’ve never felt that I was dangerous landing it but just couldn’t do it gracefully.  Now I think the gracefulness is slowly trying to appear.  It’s a good feeling.

[carusoam]

MBD,

Great follow up!

Consider adding the height detector… LHS(?)

It may add the motivation to really make things smoooooth….  

if you start posting landing videos to YouTube…. We can post grades on a scale of 5-10….

PP attempts at humor only,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

I don’t know about that.  The occasional seven or maybe even an eight would be nice,but ask the two’s and threes would be discouraging.

[Skates97]

On 1/23/2022 at 4:06 PM, Bartman said:

I continue to trim in the flare all the way to eventual stall and when I do touch down there is very little back pressure on the yoke.  After landing I have to trim down quite a bit to get back to takeoff settings. 

I try to follow @donkaye's advice from his video, which for my plane is to be trimmed hands off at 80 mph on final. From there I don't trim in the flare, just work the yoke, it has served me well.

[RobertGary1]

On 1/23/2022 at 4:06 PM, Bartman said:

I continue to trim in the flare all the way to eventual stall and when I do touch down there is very little back pressure on the yoke.  After landing I have to trim down quite a bit to get back to takeoff settings. 

How’s the go around?

[RobertGary1]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:05 AM, M20Doc said:

If the controls are binding per the OP’s post(#3) that has to be looked at first, weight and balance may be a secondary issue.  A forward C of G doesn’t cause binding flight controls unless the airframe is bending under this load.

Clarence

I kind of suspected he may be misusing the word “binding” because at first I thought the same. 

[Bartman]

The go around with nearly full up trim requires knowing the fact that the trim is nearly full up and expect how the plane flies. It does require pushing on the yoke which can feel unnatural but that’s what you would do anyway, I just have to push a little more. I don’t recall ever hitting the up stop except when doing it on the ground intentionally so maybe I’m not as near the stop as I think, but I do continue to trim such that there is very little back pressure when the mains touch.

I can count the times I have done a real go-around on one hand, but do practice it both alone and every flight review.  Go around is rare but I land every time I fly so I try to do it the same way every time. 

[Bob R]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:26 AM, Bartman said:

The go around with nearly full up trim requires knowing the fact that the trim is nearly full up and expect how the plane flies. It does require pushing on the yoke which can feel unnatural but that’s what you would do anyway, I just have to push a little more. I don’t recall ever hitting the up stop except when doing it on the ground intentionally so maybe I’m not as near the stop as I think, but I do continue to trim such that there is very little back pressure when the mains touch.

I can count the times I have done a real go-around on one hand, but do practice it both alone and every flight review.  Go around is rare but I land every time I fly so I try to do it the same way every time. 

70kt final and flare 65kt over threshold works for me when alone. Hold a bit higher speed at higher gross.

[Buckeyechuck]

On 1/22/2022 at 5:32 PM, M20Doc said:

Check that the cup, item 13 is not too tight causing the phenolic ball item 12 to be seized in the cup.  I’ve also seen control column shafts with a slight bend causing it to bind in the ball.  

Is there a procedure for setting the spacing in the cups?   I suspect this is too tight in my C. 

[Skates97]

10 hours ago, Buckeyechuck said:

Is there a procedure for setting the spacing in the cups?   I suspect this is too tight in my C. 

I don't know if there's a procedure, but you could check and see if there's a couple washers on the screws between the cups. They keep them spaced apart. It's possible if someone has had things apart that the washers fell out on disassembly allowing them to pinch together. @M20Doccould probably say if they were there on all the C's, I don't have the parts manual in front of me. 

[Guest]

Normally there are enough washers to allow the ball to rotate within the cups, but not so many washers that the balls are loose in the cups. It’s a trial and error method.

Clarence