Mooney factory for sale

[aviatoreb]

22 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Unfortunately, what I do know, I cannot say but it isnt much really. Suffice it to say it is a complete replacement of the gear and as far as I can surmise, with the higher GW, something will have to be done with the flaps to keep the stall speed below 61kts.

I guessed you might be bound by a non disclosure.  Well can’t blame a guy for asking.

oh yeah… stall speed!

sounds exciting.

Edited November 8, 2021 by aviatoreb

[Jerry 5TJ]

32 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

, something will have to be done with the flaps to keep the stall speed below 61kts.

Maybe blown flaps a la F-104 using bleed air from the compressor stages.  

[Igor_U]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

I guess you would not want the GWI. Fair enough. For it to be a worthwhile investment, you must first have a plane it would apply to, I suppose.

It's not that he wouldn't like a GWI. Issue is he (rightly) has no faith factory can certify that at the current state, if ever. How long did it take to certify Ultra and how many were you made?

 

And you are absolutely right, it would cost much more then $20k to buy that...

[Schllc]

My understanding through the rumor mill is that the new gear or modifications would fit in the existing wheel well. That seems to be logical, and the in,y practical way you could accomplish this without it costing an exorbitant amount compared to just really expensive. 
I would be interested in the “around $50k” range. 
I think it would add that or close to it in actual value to the plane. 
if $5,000,000 was the number for the  research, mod and parts it would only take 100 planes to pay for it, and there are at least 4x that in long bodies. 
It seems unlikely that it would ever happen, and just as unlikely that there are 100 people would spend the money. 
But I would. 

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

My understanding through the rumor mill is that the new gear or modifications would fit in the existing wheel well. That seems to be logical, and the in,y practical way you could accomplish this without it costing an exorbitant amount compared to just really expensive. 
I would be interested in the “around $50k” range. 
I think it would add that or close to it in actual value to the plane. 
if $5,000,000 was the number for the  research, mod and parts it would only take 100 planes to pay for it, and there are at least 4x that in long bodies. 
It seems unlikely that it would ever happen, and just as unlikely that there are 100 people would spend the money. 
But I would. 

I think you are mixing up "price" with "profit margin to Mooney".  If Mooney sells it installed for $50,000 you have to subtract all the direct variable costs they incur in order to determine their payback.  Let's assume that there is $25,000 in parts, axles, oleo shocks, assemblies, wheels, tires, etc.  Remember that the New Mooney only orders in small quantities as it has line of sight for near term sales so that drives all the prices up (i.e. like no-back springs, etc)

And how many shop hours do you think it will need to remove, install and rerig?...100 shop hours...more?  At $75 per hour for variable labor, lights, utilities, consumables,  shop overhead, etc that is about $7,500. OK so now Mooney has a gross margin of $17,500 per installation.  That means that Mooney has to sell 286 to break even before taxes on your assumed $5 million investment.  And that is just to break even...no profit on the investment for all the work.

Some will likely argue the shop hours are low and the shop cost is low. If these numbers are anywhere close to the cost I bet Mooney prices the mod at about $75,000. 

Also I wonder with all these changing masses and geometry, will the current beleaguered Eaton and/ or Plessey landing gear actuator be able to do the job and hold up?  There were comments in earlier threads that the plane will sit higher which implies a longer radius (not sure how that fits in the current wheel well).

Edited November 9, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[Will.iam]

10 hours ago, toto said:

The most significant piece of autoland, the Garmin Safe Glide functionality, costs zero dollars and is available to anyone with a GTN Xi.

Granted, this doesn't do the auto-throttle/auto-braking, but will get the plane to a runway if it's within gliding distance.

no one talks about auto gear, or is this safe glide to a gear up landing?  If not then you are back to training the other occupants on when to lower the gear, and if you are already training for gear, just go ahead and train for throttle use as any person that can keep a car going a certain speed can do the same in the plane, your just using your hand instead of your foot.

[Schllc]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I think you are mixing up "price" with "profit margin to Mooney".  If Mooney sells it installed for $50,000 you have to subtract all the direct variable costs they incur in order to determine their payback.  Let's assume that there is $25,000 in parts, axles, oleo shocks, assemblies, wheels, tires, etc.  Remember that the New Mooney only orders in small quantities as it has line of sight for near term sales so that drives all the prices up (i.e. like no-back springs, etc)

And how many shop hours do you think it will need to remove, install and rerig?...100 shop hours...more?  At $75 per hour for variable labor, lights, utilities, consumables,  shop overhead, etc that is about $7,500. OK so now Mooney has a gross margin of $17,500 per installation.  That means that Mooney has to sell 286 to break even before taxes on your assumed $5 million investment.  And that is just to break even...no profit on the investment for all the work.

Some will likely argue the shop hours are low and the shop cost is low. If these numbers are anywhere close to the cost I bet Mooney prices the mod at about $75,000. 

Also I wonder with all these changing masses and geometry, will the current beleaguered Eaton and/ or Plessey landing gear actuator be able to do the job and hold up?  There were comments in earlier threads that the plane will sit higher which implies a longer radius (not sure how that fits in the current wheel well).

No, I didn’t mix it up. Somewhere earlier in the thread someone threw out the number of $3,000,000. I added an extra two mil for profit and overhead. 
This is all arbitrary anyway, and the general premise still applies. 
The factory isn’t likely to do it, and most owners aren’t likely to buy it, so it’s pretty much moot.  

[toto]

3 hours ago, Will.iam said:

no one talks about auto gear, or is this safe glide to a gear up landing?  If not then you are back to training the other occupants on when to lower the gear, and if you are already training for gear, just go ahead and train for throttle use as any person that can keep a car going a certain speed can do the same in the plane, your just using your hand instead of your foot.

It’s an interesting question, and I don’t know the answer. I guess I’m happy to have the plane scraping to a stop on a runway with all occupants walking away.

Autoland is ostensibly about pilot incapacitation, and Safe Glide is more about reducing workload in an engine-out scenario. When the engine dies with passengers aboard, getting to the ground at a survivable speed and attitude without impacting terrain is really the only concern.

But anyway, the software for controlling the plane to the nearest airport is free and already in the Xi.

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, toto said:

It’s an interesting question, and I don’t know the answer. I guess I’m happy to have the plane scraping to a stop on a runway with all occupants walking away.

Autoland is ostensibly about pilot incapacitation, and Safe Glide is more about reducing workload in an engine-out scenario. When the engine dies with passengers aboard, getting to the ground at a survivable speed and attitude without impacting terrain is really the only concern.

But anyway, the software for controlling the plane to the nearest airport is free and already in the Xi.

True - but there is some cross over.  safe glide coupled to the autopilot could be used in the case of pilot incapacitation, either by the pilot if the pilot is only mostly incapacitated (heart attack with some Witt still there? or some other medical scenarios) or by a co-pilot/passenger.

Coupled to the autopilot requires gfc500.  

It seems like a fantastic set up.

[toto]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

True - but there is some cross over.  safe glide coupled to the autopilot could be used in the case of pilot incapacitation, either by the pilot if the pilot is only mostly incapacitated (heart attack with some Witt still there? or some other medical scenarios) or by a co-pilot/passenger.

Coupled to the autopilot requires gfc500.  

It seems like a fantastic set up.

Yep. At least at this point, Safe Glide is the killer app for the Xi.

[chriscalandro]

Auto land isn’t going to help you if you have a mid air, lose an engine over the mountains, or a wing comes off. BRS will. 
 

BRS. 

[toto]

1 minute ago, chriscalandro said:

Auto land isn’t going to help you if you have a mid air, lose an engine over the mountains, or a wing comes off. BRS will. 
 

BRS. 

That may be true. But we’re just talking about the marketing benefits of one versus the other. In the scheme of things, none of this stuff is likely to kill us. What will kill us is CFIT and continued VFR into IMC.

[GeeBee]

If the price for GW increase is 50K, it will seem cheap at resale particularly if it is a limited program and the kit is unavailable in the future. I would think an airplane without a GW mod will linger in the resale market.

 

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, toto said:

Yep. At least at this point, Safe Glide is the killer app for the Xi.

I think they'll use different words in their marketing.

[Brandt]

How about everybody who posts in this topic send Mooney $100? We could have them recapitalized in no time…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[1980Mooney]

21 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Ok - Mike - so I think I am typical of many Mooney OWNERS -.........Long rambling reply - so call me a plausible customer moderately interested but not enough unless I know what is actually planned, but more likely closer to the original price point - or even double that - but not quadruple that - mostly because of the fact that I am already good to go.

I am confused.  How can you be a "plausible customer" of the Long Body Gross Weight Increase with a Mid Body?  You have a modified K and I have a modified J by Rocket Eng.  Mooney has never hinted at anything other than a Long Body.  In the fund raising/for sale PowerPoint they limit it to only Ultra's.

On the Mooney Corp site, Jonny said they were "working on it" last December.  Someone from the company on April 1 said that they were busy with other things and know that it will be a lot of work but would give an update some time "We have been making strides in making parts, answering Tech Support email, phone calls etc. Hope to have some of your answers about GW increase as we get closer (many tests will need to be completed as well as certification items)".  Mooney has not updated the GW topic forum in 6 months.

As someone said this is probably moot.  For Mid and Short body owners it is double moot.  For anyone with a Rocket Engineering modification it is probably triple moot.

https://www.mooney.com/forums/topic/gross-weight-increase-long-body/

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Brandt said:

How about everybody who posts in this topic send Mooney $100? We could have them recapitalized in no time…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

$100 each!  This is Mooneyspace not Beech talk.

Clarence

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

I am confused.  How can you be a "plausible customer" of the Long Body Gross Weight Increase with a Mid Body?  You have a modified K and I have a modified J by Rocket Eng.  Mooney has never hinted at anything other than a Long Body.  In the fund raising/for sale PowerPoint they limit it to only Ultra's.

On the Mooney Corp site, Jonny said they were "working on it" last December.  Someone from the company on April 1 said that they were busy with other things and know that it will be a lot of work but would give an update some time "We have been making strides in making parts, answering Tech Support email, phone calls etc. Hope to have some of your answers about GW increase as we get closer (many tests will need to be completed as well as certification items)".  Mooney has not updated the GW topic forum in 6 months.

As someone said this is probably moot.  For Mid and Short body owners it is double moot.  For anyone with a Rocket Engineering modification it is probably triple moot.

https://www.mooney.com/forums/topic/gross-weight-increase-long-body/

No - apparently I am confused.  Not you.  I was not aware that mid bodies are entirely off the table.  Is that true?  I guess it makes my decision easier...  Anyway, I am not sure rocket makes it triple moot if other mid bodies are already double moot.  We can use many stc's in our rockets available to the rest of the k-line.  So double-triple - moot is moot.  Is it for sure?  Anyway maybe it is likely moot for everyone, sadly.

[LANCECASPER]

The one thing that long body Mooney owners have going for them is that Jonny owns an Acclaim Type S and can see it from a Mooney owners perspective. Whether that's enough motivation to translate into R & D for the Gross Weight Increase remains to be seen.

[Taylor Pilot]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:36 PM, toto said:

It's interesting.  I've always understood the mid-20th century success of GA to result from returning WWII servicemen who developed a passion for aviation in the service and wanted to continue that passion in civilian life.  But the peak of GA piston sales was in the late 70's, 30 years after the war ended.

So you've got to think that some of the 1970's success was early Boomer kids who inherited their parents' passion for aviation and went to buy their own airplanes.

What happened after that?  Did the Gen X kids not inherit that aviation passion?  Or their kids?

I dunno, but I keep thinking that it's more about the price of admission than lack of interest.

I am a CFI and I don't run into too many people wouldn't want to be a pilot...it is just too expensive for 99.9% of the population.  12k just to get the license and I am quick to tell them that a PPL is just a license to spend more money.  Even if you could build a new J for 500K, you'd need to feed and maintain it.  Not to mention that your weekends away usually run atleast $1000 a pop.  So if you want to get away 10 times a year (otherwise why own an airplane), you are looking at 10k minimum in travel after you spend the half a million and probably another 15-20k a year to own the plane...it just isn't tenable for most people (myself included at this point).

[1980Mooney]

Latest Q3 2021 GAMA Shipments and Billings are out.  https://gama.aero/wp-content/uploads/2021ShipmentReportQ3.pdf

In Q3 2021 Cirrus nearly sold more Single Engine Piston (SEP) than Textron, Piper, Diamond and Mooney combined 

Cirrus    121
Diamond    35
Mooney    0
Piper    49
Textron    52

Looking at it another way - Cirrus sold more SEP in the Third Quarter (Q3) of 2021 alone than Mooney has in total for the last 12 years combined.

Mooney Shipments

2001	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010
29	10	36	37	85	75	79	65	19	2

 

 

2011	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020
0	0	0	1	11	7	7	14	9	0

 

Cirrus currently has 47% of the SEP (4 seat and above) market.  Most of Textron and Piper sales are for legacy trainers.  Textron has sold no Bonanza G36 (and no Baron's either) through the 3rd Quarter 2021.  I wonder if the bean counters at Textron are getting ready to shut down the Bo and Baron like they did to the superior Columbia/Cessna 300&400.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Textron has sold no Bonanza G36 (and no Baron's either) through the 3rd Quarter 2021.  I wonder if the bean counters at Textron are getting ready to shut down the Bo and Baron like they did to the superior Columbia/Cessna 300&400.

I agree Beech is the stepchild at Textron. But there's a very good reason they haven't sold any G36 and G38 airplanes this year. They haven't built any. They shut the lines down a few months into covid. They are working on G36s right now with a waiting list. I just talked to a gentleman that does Beech transition training yesterday and he is working with someone who bought a $1.1 million G36 last week. It will never be a huge market but it would be a shame to see that product line come to an end.

[1980Mooney]

22 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I agree Beech is the stepchild at Textron. But there's a very good reason they haven't sold any G36 and G38 airplanes this year. They haven't built any. They shut the lines down a few months into covid. They are working on G36s right now with a waiting list. I just talked to a gentleman that does Beech transition training yesterday and he is working with someone who bought a $1.1 million G36 last week. It will never be a huge market but it would be a shame to see that product line come to an end.

How did a new G36 get up to $1.1 million? I think they were quoted to be in the high $900K's around the time Mooney ceased manufacturing.  Here is an analysis of new SEP aircraft prices done bye Meyer Aircraft back in Oct. 1999 when they were trying to raise money.  An A36 Bonanza, (a G36 without flat glass panel), at the time cost $524K.  I can't believe that the doubling of cost is because of litigation or insurance - The General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994 was in place and the level of litigation existing at the time is basically the same as today.  And it can't be because Garmin is jacking prices to Textron.

The new GA market is geared towards millionaires and multi-millionaires. Everything is gravitating towards higher prices regardless whether it’s a legacy air frame or a clean sheet.  Flying Magazine seems to be dominated by the Turbine Edition nowdays.  Many at MS talk about adding a turboprop to a Mooney as a solution.  It is nuts.

 

Make/Model	Equipped Price	Speed	Useful Load	Price/knot	Price/lb
Mooney Eagle	$354,600	180	1006	$1,970	$352
Mooney Ovation II	$413,900	194	1143	$2,133	$362
Mooney Bravo	$459,000	195	1100	$2,353	$417
Commander 114B	$402,475	156	1158	$2,579	$347
Bonanza A36	$524,000	176	1132	$2,977	$462
New Piper Arrow	$256,665	137	967	$1,873	$265
New Piper Saratoga	$398,900	162	1212	$2,456	$311
Trinidad TB-20	$347,490	150	1282	$2,316	$271
Meyers 200D	$299,000	200	1250	$1,495	$239

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

An A36 Bonanza, (a G36 without flat glass panel), at the time cost $524K.  I can't believe that the doubling of cost is because of litigation or insurance - The General Aviation Revitalization Act of 1994 was in place and the level of litigation existing at the time is basically the same as today.  And it can't be because Garmin is jacking prices to Textron

Inflation alone accounts for an increase to $882,000 ish.

https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

G1000 NXi is probably another $75-100,000 on the margin.

Inefficiencies from low production raise cost/price more.

-Dan

[mike_elliott]

13 hours ago, exM20K said:

G1000 NXi is probably another $75-100,000 on the margin

bet this and the gfc700 cost Mooney more.