G1000 life cycle and diminishing value

[wdeninger]

As a person researching 2005ish Mooney aircraft for purchase for the long haul (distance and life), I admit I am enamored by the clean appearance of the dual G1000 cockpits.  But now after reading a few threads on MooneySpace lamenting the difficulty or impossibility of upgrading the Mooney G1000 system, I'm a bit hesitant.  Especially after the huge number of laptop blue screens of death I've dealt with over the years.

What is a G1000's realistic life cycle in a cockpit environment?  A computer located in the temperature controlled pristine environment of a data center would be far better off than in the sun baked pressure cycling cockpit of an aircraft, but even data center servers are replaced every 5-10 years -- and most for reliability reasons.  And data center servers don't hold your life in the balance.  Is the lifecycle of a G1000 20 years?  40 years?  60 years?  I would guess that it would be significantly less than the lifecycle of the airframe.

Should the mindset be to view the un-upgradeable un-replaceable G1000 in Mooneys as less of a feature and more of a liability that detract from an aircraft's value, analogous to buying a 20 years old Tesla that you're are unable to replace batteries?  Yes, a Tesla is cool, but without a battery replacement option the deal is dead.

If the G1000 systems CAN be replaced or upgraded, what is the path for doing it?

-William

[KSMooniac]

You're wise to be considering the long term ramifications of the G1000 IMO. It was revolutionary when it arrived, but the certification path tied it to the airframe by necessity, and at least for Mooney, any updates, replacements, or upgrades must go through the Mooney factory and not just Garmin. Whether Mooney is open, or has parts, or has an upgrade path at any point in the future is a big gamble if you plan to own one for the foreseeable future. I believe the hardware is much more robust than commercial computer hardware, but not infinite life...

Both for budget reasons and the unknown support path, I doubt I'll ever be a G1000 buyer. If I were shopping today, I would go for a pre-GX Mooney without a doubt. If I really wanted the full glass panel, I'd happily spend the money on G3X or G500 along with the GFC500. It's not the turn-key write-the-check and fly away in your new plane experience, but at least you can retain the ability to update in the future on your own.

Garmin has in the past developed G1000 aftermarket STC's for the King Air and some jets and it has worked great for them. But with the costs involved, I cannot imagine them coming up with a replacement G1000 system for the aftermarket light GA market.

Look at Don Kaye's Bravo if you want an upper bound of what is possible with modern Garmin aftermarket updates. His plane is very likely "better" than a new G1000 Mooney. And in another decade he can update it again without depending on Mooney to do something.

If you do end up with a G1000, make sure it already has WAAS at a minimum. It's difficult/expensive/impossible to do now if my understanding is correct. My own example... I did a double GNS W upgrade in 2007 for $3300 out the door... And I think it cost G1000 owners $30k to get the same capability, but it wasn't available until many, many years later.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[PJClark]

when the Mooney factory "reopened" last year one of the things they were allegely working on was an STC to provide an upgrade path from those old G1000s to the G1000nxi.  IDK if that has happened, or maybe if Garmin has done it, but someone is/was at least thinking about it.

[V1VRV2]

Garmin usually offers flat rate refurbished avionics exchange on many if not all of their avionics. The flat rate exchange isn’t cheap but will provide a replaceable functioning unit for the failed one. I know for my G600 the display exchange price is $2,800. Exchanges may include a warranty as well. Call a Garmin avionics dealer and inquire about flat rate exchange on the G1000. As long as the G1000 has WAAS and the flat rate exchange was available I wouldn’t have a problem owning a G1000 equipped Mooney.

[exM20K]

There is a huge installed base on G1000 aircraft out there, many with no upgrade path.  It’s not something that keeps me up at night.  a WAAS G1000 combined with GFC700 is simply the best pairing of autopilot and avionics I’ve ever flown with. And the lower panel significantly improves forward visibility  

as for the life cycle, mine is 12 years old now, and it’s the buttons and knobs that have been points of failure for me.  Sadly, these are not field serviceable, but Garmin is quick with the overhaul/exchange.  I am having an four month old exchange MFD replaced under warranty  right now because the cOM freq inner adjustment knob failed. Previous failure was the Zoom knob.

These are simple repairs for Garmin, and I expect they will support the G1000 for a good, long time.

 

That said, I’d happily pay for an NXI upgrade at the cost of other aircraft so upgraded.

And another 200# of useful load might make this my last plane.

-dam

Edited August 28, 2021 by exM20K

[Schllc]

1 hour ago, wdeninger said:

As a person researching 2005ish Mooney aircraft for purchase for the long haul (distance and life), I admit I am enamored by the clean appearance of the dual G1000 cockpits.  But now after reading a few threads on MooneySpace lamenting the difficulty or impossibility of upgrading the Mooney G1000 system, I'm a bit hesitant.  Especially after the huge number of laptop blue screens of death I've dealt with over the years.

What is a G1000's realistic life cycle in a cockpit environment?  A computer located in the temperature controlled pristine environment of a data center would be far better off than in the sun baked pressure cycling cockpit of an aircraft, but even data center servers are replaced every 5-10 years -- and most for reliability reasons.  And data center servers don't hold your life in the balance.  Is the lifecycle of a G1000 20 years?  40 years?  60 years?  I would guess that it would be significantly less than the lifecycle of the airframe.

Should the mindset be to view the un-upgradeable un-replaceable G1000 in Mooneys as less of a feature and more of a liability that detract from an aircraft's value, analogous to buying a 20 years old Tesla that you're are unable to replace batteries?  Yes, a Tesla is cool, but without a battery replacement option the deal is dead.

If the G1000 systems CAN be replaced or upgraded, what is the path for doing it?

-William

Lots of threads and comments regarding this topic. 
This topic is not unlike most discussions in aviation, there is a lot of hangar talk, and opinions from people who have limited experience with the topic, yet are happy to repeat anecdotal, and or third hand information. 
No platform is perfect, G1000 is certainly no exception. I have owned four planes with the legacy g1000 and one with the nxi. 
I have also upgraded two of them which didn’t have, to Waas. 
you have to buy used parts, and they aren’t always immediately available but are absolutely there if you look. 
I would not hesitate a moment to buy another g1000, but would agree with the comment to buy one with Waas if at all possible, and if you buy one without, make sure you pay accordingly. 
 

as far as support, parts and blue screens...

support is complete and efficient. Doesn’t really matter what happens to a screen, it’s about 2500 for an exchange. 
I have had to do only one of them, and it wasn’t for lcd/led failure. 
I have 100% confidence in garmin to keep this equipment supported. 
 

[buddy]

I’ve got a 2005 with the G1000 and Stec 55X and couldn’t be happier. I installed the WAAS when it certified by Mooney in 2016 and had the PFD sent to Garmin twice once for auto back lightning (this can be set manually) and once because I couldn’t set the Baro in the PFD (this can be also set using the MFD).

The Stec A/P was sent out twice, the 2nd time was under warranty and I had to replace the roll servo.

I guess that’s not to bad for being 16 yrs old.

[Schllc]

3 hours ago, PJClark said:

when the Mooney factory "reopened" last year one of the things they were allegely working on was an STC to provide an upgrade path from those old G1000s to the G1000nxi.  IDK if that has happened, or maybe if Garmin has done it, but someone is/was at least thinking about it.

What say you @Jonny?

Been a while since you popped in here. This one oughta be an easy answer...

Are we going to see a path to an upgrade for nxi?

[Yetti]

The key is if it is not ADSB and you can't find the kit.  The plane becomes an orphan.    Also what A/P  and what is an upgrade path there.

[philip_g]

48 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The key is if it is not ADSB and you can't find the kit.  The plane becomes an orphan.    Also what A/P  and what is an upgrade path there.

Adsb or waas?

 

The g1k cirrus it's no big deal to swap in a gtx33es for 1090 out. I can't imagine the Mooney is any different. Waas I thought was the one that's tough to do now.

Edited August 28, 2021 by philip_g

[GeeBee]

First of all, they are called LRUs for a reason. "Line Replacable Unit". Meaning you fix it by pulling the old one out and putting a new or refurbished unit in. My experience with Garmin rebuilt units has been superb. Not cheap, but solid. 

Second, yes a G1000 is part of the TDCS on the airplane. So is the engine. Lots of airplanes have different engines than they came from the factory with, the M20K being one example, dare I say Rocket? The only thing holding up the STC upgrade of a G1000 is Mooney's agreement with Garmin. If one of the two vaporize, whole new ballgame. Thus we are dealing with commercial agreements here. There are a lot of 40 year old Boeings out there that have CRT displays as part of their type data certificate, but it is not stopping manufacturers from creating STCs to upgrade to their displays and avionics. It can be done, it just needs money and a donor airplane for certification of the STC. So I'm not worried, but I am perplexed.

I am perplexed that the "new Mooney" does not see the upgrade as a quick and easy revenue stream or that they are not more forth coming on progress reports to make it happen. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like mostly a paper work issue,  with maybe a donor airplane to Garmin's hangar, since the TCDS already has models with the Nxi and GFC autopilot aboard. It seems a no-brainer easy upgrade to create and sell without a lot of development costs. In the meantime, I am very happy with my WAAS enable G1000 and S-Tec55x. It will serve me for the next 10 years easy.

[Danb]

6 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Garmin usually offers flat rate refurbished avionics exchange on many if not all of their avionics. The flat rate exchange isn’t cheap but will provide a replaceable functioning unit for the failed one. I know for my G600 the display exchange price is $2,800. Exchanges may include a warranty as well. Call a Garmin avionics dealer and inquire about flat rate exchange on the G1000. As long as the G1000 has WAAS and the flat rate exchange was available I wouldn’t have a problem owning a G1000 equipped Mooney.

I replaced my MFD last year for $ 1,250, it had a lot of intermittent static, the day before a price increase according to the dealer

[Will.iam]

So if mooney wasn’t around then how would you get a replacement path to different aviation equipment? How does the warbirds that were certified and have no manufacture able to get upgrades. Or is this the fact that nobody until mooney with the G1000 tied it to the certificate that made it a problem? 

[carusoam]

This is a pretty funny thread…

The topic of concern used to be… will Mooney be around next year, next decade, next century…

 

Once you have owned a plane… these questions are more of an annoyance factor….  As in it is annoying when the oddities directly affect you…

Most often… planes are priced with what they have in them… compared to what is available today…

Your plane decreases in value slowly, while the world is steadily spending money upgrading…

 

Somebody wrote the details of what it takes to remove an existing G1000 panel and install a newer version….

Realistically, this discussion just made the 01s (pre-g1000) go up in value…. 

 

If you get 20 years out of avionics, an engine, and a paint job… you have gone the distance.   
 

Look forward to the upgrades…

Very few people enjoy their KX 170Bs any more… just when you thought they would last forever… 

PP thoughts on plane values going forwards… not an economist, or plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

7 hours ago, Will.iam said:

So if mooney wasn’t around then how would you get a replacement path to different aviation equipment? How does the warbirds that were certified and have no manufacture able to get upgrades. Or is this the fact that nobody until mooney with the G1000 tied it to the certificate that made it a problem? 

The issue is a commercial, not regulatory. You can't go to Garmin and buy an NXi upgrade for a Mooney because their agreements with Mooney. Basically if you go to Garmin and want to buy a G1000 the first thing will be, "what are you going to do with it?" If Mooney was no longer in business, Garmin would likely seek a donor airplane and do the STC themselves. There are a lot of King Air's out there that did not come from the factory with G1000, but Garmin did an STC for them. When the NXi upgrade came, Garmin did the NXi upgrade again for those King Airs. So while people will say "you can't do anything because it is tied to the TCDS", not really true.

[Aerodon]

I’m sure Mooney has contracts with engine manufacturers.  Didn’t stop Rocket engineering from developing their STC’s.

I’m not super familiar either the Porche engine replacement.  Didn’t Mooney develop a replacement option?

so when g1000’s become a problem, I’m sure there will be options.

 

Aerodon

 

[TGreen]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:15 PM, buddy said:

I’ve got a 2005 with the G1000 and Stec 55X and couldn’t be happier. 

Me, too. I don't have WAAS and frankly don't see what's the big deal. The nonprecision minimums have always been low enough for me. 

[KSMooniac]

Garmin did their aftermarket STC for King Airs because of the huge market and hull value of the existing fleet... And most of those still work for a living. Quite different compared to our Mooney fleet, of which most are toys or personal transport. A KA owner might see tons of value in the 100 AMU G1000 transformation to rid their plane that flies all the time of 40 year old equipment that fails regularly. How many Mooney GX owners would pay 100 AMU for an Nxi + GFC700 retrofit? It is similar effort and expense to do the project, but the business case is quite different.

I hope someone will be able to figure out a path that doesn't require an STC in the future when G1000 support dries up. I don't know if an owner could realistically install a G500 or G3X + GFC500 (or whatever is on the market in 2040) in a GX Mooney like they can in an earlier version. Time will tell.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[Steve Yucht]

Thankfully I'm one of the 2000 O2 DX lucky ones that doesn't have to worry about this. Would it be possible to reclassify the plane as experimental and just put in whatever you want? If there's no options for upgrade this may be a viable solution if it is permissible. 

[LANCECASPER]

32 minutes ago, Steve Yucht said:

Thankfully I'm one of the 2000 O2 DX lucky ones that doesn't have to worry about this. Would it be possible to reclassify the plane as experimental and just put in whatever you want? If there's no options for upgrade this may be a viable solution if it is permissible. 

This has been brought up a few times before, but according to the experts, no.

[LANCECASPER]

On 8/31/2021 at 4:35 PM, TGreen said:

Me, too. I don't have WAAS and frankly don't see what's the big deal. The nonprecision minimums have always been low enough for me. 

Having a vertical guidance coupled WAAS approach is a big deal. I didn’t know what all the hoopla was until I had it. It’s a game changer for sure with WAAS approaches available into many airports that would have never had a ground based approach.

[Tommooney]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:15 PM, buddy said:

I’ve got a 2005 with the G1000 and Stec 55X and couldn’t be happier.

I bought in 2003 with round gauges and works for me, since i learned that way in 1980s. I've had no radio repairs needed in 18 years. The king 225 coupled to g530w works great.  I put an ipad / foreflight on each yoke with a stratus on the dash running both. I don't plan to do any more upgrades ( i did add edm 900 5 years ago and upload to Savvy MX monthly ) . When i'm gone the new husband can do more upgrades. I'm hoping.....

Tom

[Schllc]

I find the argument that 70 year old technology is preferable and/or superior to 20 year old technology, somewhat confusing.   
I have yet to meet a single person who owned a legacy g1000 and regretted or didn’t like it, but lots of people who have never owned one seem to enjoy bashing.
There is complete and total support for repairing of these units, and with the existing fleet that is equipped with them, there is no end to the support in sight. 
  
Mooney is both the solution and the problem regarding upgrading to the nxi. 
They could choose to invest in the upgrade with garmin, or if they were to go out of business, garmin could, and likely would facilitate the upgrade on their own. 

if Mooney  went out of business, it would also be possible to remove the entire platform and replace it with standard avionics. 
The airframe is stc’d with myriad of options. 
Simple?
Probably not, but certainly possible. 
 

[cliffy]

An orphaned G1000 airplane is in reality no different than the 'V" tail issues now in affect with Beech no longer making magnesium ruddervator  skins

Many V tails will be grounded after their skins get rejected due to corrosion and NO availability to replace them is at  hand

Beech Club just upped  their prize offer from $100,000  to $500,000 dollars trying to find someone to come up with a legal fix for the fleet. 

G1000 Mooneys will be no different at some point in  the future much like PFM Mooneys are now. 

And NOW with the factory up for sale who knows what the future holds for any Mooney especially the G1000s IF the 1000 goes away from Garmin servicing.  Those G1000s without WAAS are also going to be a dead duck in the market place as practically ALL buyers want WAAS capability. 

What confuses me is why if current Mooney has the ability to agree to have someone else do the heavy lifting to recert the 1000 Mooneys (commercial agreement)  why don't they do it for the good of the fleet and general customer goodwill? If they don't want to do it why let all the airframes hang in limbo? Especially considering their current financial position?

Maybe because NO ONE wants to do it? 

[TGreen]

18 hours ago, cliffy said:

An orphaned G1000 airplane is in reality no different than the 'V" tail issues now in affect with Beech no longer making magnesium ruddervator  skins

Many V tails will be grounded after their skins get rejected due to corrosion and NO availability to replace them is at  hand

Beech Club just upped  their prize offer from $100,000  to $500,000 dollars trying to find someone to come up with a legal fix for the fleet. 

G1000 Mooneys will be no different at some point in  the future much like PFM Mooneys are now. 

And NOW with the factory up for sale who knows what the future holds for any Mooney especially the G1000s IF the 1000 goes away from Garmin servicing.  Those G1000s without WAAS are also going to be a dead duck in the market place as practically ALL buyers want WAAS capability. 

What confuses me is why if current Mooney has the ability to agree to have someone else do the heavy lifting to recert the 1000 Mooneys (commercial agreement)  why don't they do it for the good of the fleet and general customer goodwill? If they don't want to do it why let all the airframes hang in limbo? Especially considering their current financial position?

Maybe because NO ONE wants to do it? 

I shoot GPS approaches without WAAS all the time. Bought my O2 5 years ago and pretty sure it has appreciated about $40,000 since then.