Minimum Safe Altitude for Engine Out Turn Back To Airport

[alextstone]

Hi Bravo Pilots!

Last weekend, I practiced engine out procedures with an instructor, first at 5500 feet, then upon departure from an altitude of 1200 ft AGL.  I learned that that I have altitude to spare to get back to the airport but I wonder how knowledge that I was going to do the procedure (reaction time) and the fact that the engine was idling changed the required altitude.  In other words, what do you consider to be your minimum altitude to attempt a return to airport upon engine out and why?  @donkaye?  Mike Elliott?

I'm thinking that the start of the turn needs to be at an altitude of at least 1000 ft AGL....

Alex

[Boilermonkey]

The startle factor is a time question.  If you haven't started the turn on speed (or above) at 1000ft...then going back isn't an option.   Given that, a pre-departure briefing of what's straight ahead is really important.  As well as abort points on the runway.  It might be far better to go off the end or into a fence than trying to make something happen in the air.

[Boilermonkey]

Did you try any of the engine out approaches with prop full forward versus all the way out.  It's amazing what the prop pitch does to the aircraft performance.  At low altitude it might not matter as you'd have your hands full getting her down safely.  Whereas if you had some time and altitude it's a good idea to pull the prop all the way out.

 

[carusoam]

Imagine this question gets covered completely in at least one other place….

People practice this under ideal conditions at altitude first…

Amazing how much altitude gets lost to execute the whole U-turn…

When you read the other threads…

You will find how many degrees of turn in which directions are required…

Plan A: Land straight ahead…

Also in the plan…. Your initial climb rate helps planning your return…

 

Vx,y, or z. Will leave you higher and further away depending on what you are planning…

 

I try to have two plans… a field straight ahead within a few degrees…. Gain altitude, know if you are going to turn into the wind or not…

Once the engine croaks… all LBs are pretty much the same….  
 

Key words are push, to get light in your seat..  do not wait…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[will1874]

Hi Bravo Pilots!
Last weekend, I practiced engine out procedures with an instructor, first at 5500 feet, then upon departure from an altitude of 1200 ft AGL.  I learned that that I have altitude to spare to get back to the airport but I wonder how knowledge that I was going to do the procedure (reaction time) and the fact that the engine was idling changed the required altitude.  In other words, what do you consider to be your minimum altitude to attempt a return to airport upon engine out and why?  [mention=7354]donkaye[/mention]?  Mike Elliott?
I'm thinking that the start of the turn needs to be at an altitude of at least 1000 ft AGL....
Alex

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/takeoff_impossible_turn/

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/the-impossible-turn-should-you-turn-back-to-the-runway-or-land-straight-ahead/

I thought I'd seen a better article on this topic but I cannot find it.

To summarize: be VERY conservative with this number (decision altitude for return).

It's more than a 180° turn unless you've got a good crosswind AND you're aware enough to turn into it.

You'll likely have a tailwind. Even a 10-knot headwind on departure means a 20-knot difference once you've completed the turn. Landing long with a tailwind is no fun.

The proper thing to do is...FLY...straight ahead and pitch for best glide. Then LOOK for a suitable field. The best option is one that's flat and clear and one you KNOW you can make. If there are none of those options available then it's time to look for alternatives like landing behind you.

It'd be a real shame to pass up a nice cow pasture for the convenience of crashing back at your departure airport.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thinwing]

at my standard 500 ft per min climbout at 130 kts ...in 3 min im at 1500 ft but im also 6 or 7 nauticle pass the airport....so the point being ,could one glide a heavy long body at 1500 6 or 7 knots back to my departure?In my case ..if im east bound...another long runway like old Mather AFB is a betterchoice...north bound..another old 15000 ft runway at Mcclellan awaits...south bound...lots of open pastuer land ...so it would be rare i would consider the so called 180

[thinwing]

West bound ,over housing ..I think I would consider a water landing in deep water ship canal 

[carusoam]

Our friend @Canopyman (RIP) engine out, stall… is the reminder of why we have to seriously consider all of the options… and practice them…

Best regards,

-a-

[PilotX]

Practice is important. I was slogging through a Flight Review yesterday and the plan was to determine high key/ low key position. So that I could arrive over an airport at a specified altitude and complete one 360 to land. 
 

https://www.flytime.ca/the-high-key-low-key-landing-procedure

We planned to do 360s the the throttle closed, standard rate turns and see the descent rate. I learned that full nose up trim is not the way to set best glide in a Bravo. Full nose up trim was the best way to establish this in the 182. Turns out before the CHTs got uncomfortably (for me) cold we were settled on about 600fpm at 80 KIAS and in a standard rate turn.
 

I don’t know that departing my home field which has parallel runways if I would prefer the lush golf course at the end of the runway or a swift left turn to land on the parallel. Grass stains are hard to get out of jeans, probably harder to get out of a Mooney  

[steingar]

Depends on so many things.  What's in front of me?  Where I'm based it's neighborhoods, I don't want to land in those.  Doesn't matter, I'm going to try the turn.  Can't make it that much worse so long as I don't stall it.  If I've got fields in front of me I'll probably go straight if there's any question.

Practice is useless.  An idling engine isn't the same as a dead one.  And things are way different when there's terrain in your windshield then when you're up in the sky.

[PilotX]

24 minutes ago, steingar said:

Practice is useless.  An idling engine isn't the same as a dead one.  And things are way different when there's terrain in your windshield then when you're up in the sky.

I disagree that practice is useless. What if's might be useless. True, every scenario is different, and you can't practice for every possible scenario. You can find out your pitch attitude for an idling engine, which will probably be pretty good idea for information purposes and thus should enhance your confidence. You have to go really slow to get the prop to stop windmilling - unless something is seized. Any instrument instructor will (may) tell you that the amount of time you spend staring at that one instrument (to get to best glide) in the cockpit means you are neglecting the other 10 things you should be focused on - so knowing what that pitch attitude looks like on the AI and the windscreen is important. Regardless, an idling engine is as close to a dead one as I am willing to get, for insurance purposes.

[jlunseth]

One of the best things you can do is look at your home airport in google earth and figure out where you might land, other than the airport, in the event of an engine out at low altitude. Then go up in the pattern and actually survey the airport, take pictures, decide where you might be able to go. If you have a nice, straight ahead landing in good terrain then why even try to return. At our local airport, on the other hand, about half the landings would be water landings and most would be in a swamp. West traveling landings would be in soccer fields that are full of kids most afternoons. 

[PilotX]

24 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

 about half the landings would be water landings and most would be in a swamp. West traveling landings would be in soccer fields that are full of kids most afternoons. 

Breaking news: In what is being described as a selfish act, Mooney pilot plows down a field of pee-wee soccer kids in lieu of landing in a swamp to avoid being eaten by alligators.  

[hammdo]

Lots being talked about DMMS (Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed) after the initial immediate push... 

-Don

[jlunseth]

53 minutes ago, PilotX said:

Breaking news: In what is being described as a selfish act, Mooney pilot plows down a field of pee-wee soccer kids in lieu of landing in a swamp to avoid being eaten by alligators.  

That's about it. No alligators, but the Minnesota State Birds would eat you alive.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, PilotX said:

I don’t know that departing my home field which has parallel runways if I would prefer the lush golf course at the end of the runway or a swift left turn to land on the parallel. Grass stains are hard to get out of jeans, probably harder to get out of a Mooney  

Other stains can also be difficult to remove from your pants and the left seat of your Mooney . . . .

[mike_elliott]

Alex, this is something I typically do with clients on Flight reviews. Go up to a safe altitude say 4500' on a cardinal heading, climbing at Vy, upon reaching the altitude, chop power, count to 5..this is your brain trying to process you just lost an engine. Say to yourself "this belongs to the insurance company", Now 45deg bank into the wind and pitch for best glide at your weight. If you don't know might I suggest using 95 kts. After you turn 180 deg, continue straight ahead for about 3 sec then 45 the opposite direction for 90 deg. This simulates a base to final turn. Upon reaching the completion of the 45, roll out to level and note the altitude. If your good, it will be less than 800' in a Bravo. but in real life, your use of 1K feet is good. Meanwhile, while doing this maneuver, simulate changing the 3 things that make an engine run. GAS, AIR and SPARK. dont try to figure out which in a real situation as figuring takes precious time. Just start changing them all, hopefully she will breath fire again. start with boost pump, then change fuel tank, then add alt air, then change mags up. You can practice this on the ground in the hangar with the engine off, develop a flow and muscle memory.

Prior to launching at any airport, figure out what your plan is if you have an engine out in the kill zone (below 1K feet AGL) Where will you land? After 1K you have more options, can lower the nose to cruise climb 120kts and start breathing again.

Just like the Cirrus guys, develop a habit of "turnback active" when doing your 1K AGL checklist (don't have one? get one together,,,you know, things like double check flaps up, landing light off, cruise climb settings etc)

 

 

[steingar]

I agree with @mike_elliott about one thing.  If your mill takes a dump on the way up, your insurance company just bought themselves an airplane.  Getting you and yours to safety is job 1.  If I've got something soft ahead of me I go straight.  At my home field I turn pretty much no matter what.  I have suburban neighborhoods in front of me, don't want to land that.  A local CFI lost her engine and put it down on someone's back yard.  Not for me.  I figure if I don't make the turn it's no worse than landing straight ahead, no long as I don't stall the airplane.

[hammdo]

At my home field (KGYI) , we have runway next to the main and a 'closed' RUNWAY along with with soft fields nearby.  Lots of options including a 9000 ft runway. 

I flew out of Addison for a while and stopped as there are no good options for an engine out emergency low altitude. 

I try to plan for airports where I have options but that is not always available. 

Not everyone has hull insurance but, the plane is secondary to saving lives... 

-Don 

[carusoam]

A few Mooneys have found Golf courses over the years…

The challenge with those…. Is advising the golfers of your intentions…

Honk the horn twice to let them know you are landing…?  Ring the bell?  
 

Mike, thanks for sharing all of the details of how to measure altitude loss for the ‘180’…

Best regards,

-a-

[alextstone]

On 8/23/2021 at 4:03 PM, Boilermonkey said:

Did you try any of the engine out approaches with prop full forward versus all the way out.  It's amazing what the prop pitch does to the aircraft performance.  At low altitude it might not matter as you'd have your hands full getting her down safely.  Whereas if you had some time and altitude it's a good idea to pull the prop all the way out.

 

Yes I did these maneuvers with the prop forward

[alextstone]

On 8/24/2021 at 1:43 PM, mike_elliott said:

Alex, this is something I typically do with clients on Flight reviews. Go up to a safe altitude say 4500' on a cardinal heading, climbing at Vy, upon reaching the altitude, chop power, count to 5..this is your brain trying to process you just lost an engine. Say to yourself "this belongs to the insurance company", Now 45deg bank into the wind and pitch for best glide at your weight. If you don't know might I suggest using 95 kts. After you turn 180 deg, continue straight ahead for about 3 sec then 45 the opposite direction for 90 deg. This simulates a base to final turn. Upon reaching the completion of the 45, roll out to level and note the altitude. If your good, it will be less than 800' in a Bravo. but in real life, your use of 1K feet is good. Meanwhile, while doing this maneuver, simulate changing the 3 things that make an engine run. GAS, AIR and SPARK. dont try to figure out which in a real situation as figuring takes precious time. Just start changing them all, hopefully she will breath fire again. start with boost pump, then change fuel tank, then add alt air, then change mags up. You can practice this on the ground in the hangar with the engine off, develop a flow and muscle memory.

Prior to launching at any airport, figure out what your plan is if you have an engine out in the kill zone (below 1K feet AGL) Where will you land? After 1K you have more options, can lower the nose to cruise climb 120kts and start breathing again.

Just like the Cirrus guys, develop a habit of "turnback active" when doing your 1K AGL checklist (don't have one? get one together,,,you know, things like double check flaps up, landing light off, cruise climb settings etc)

 

 

Mike,

Thank you for the detailed information.  I had not considered a moderately steep turn (45 degree bank) as a part of the strategy.  I hope to practice this with you some day.

[exM20K]

On 8/23/2021 at 4:00 PM, Boilermonkey said:

a pre-departure briefing of what's straight ahead is really important.

This.  At my home field in Illinois, even if I could maneuver for the turn-back, there is insufficient runway almost all the time to get the plane stopped and trees at one end that I’d rather not roll into.  I am highly confident that an off field landing in an adjacent golf course or prairie can be done more safely by me than all the maneuvering to run off the end of the downwind runway.

Check your downwind landing distance in the POH or ForeFlight. At 10 kts, tailwind and typical takeoff weight my Acclaim requires 4200’. and 3000’ over a 50’ obstacle and for rollout respectively. This is probably a worst-case Mooney example, but it is eye opening.

One artifact of the astounding climb rate offered by the 310HP Acclaim is the ability to out-climb the best glide sink rate by a big margin.  We go up at 1200. FPM, and would come back down at about 800, making a return doable deep into a flight with an unrestricted climb, suitable runway availability notwithstanding. 
-Dan

[Mooney Dog]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:48 PM, alextstone said:

what do you consider to be your minimum altitude to attempt a return to airport upon engine out and why? 

This goes for any single for me. Failure on the runway, bring it to a stop. Failure on the air, we're going straight ahead +/- 30 degrees. 1000 feet agl we can attempt to trun back to the airport. 

 

I figure the worst case for singles is losing around 800ft in the turn, but its not just a 180 turn, its turning over that, getting lined back up, and having room to maneuver to land as well. Now most of the time i've made a turn somewhere around 700ft AGL for the traffic pattern or departure of the area, but it a variety of factors really. I could probably make the turn back at 700 but i would need to be ontop of the plane. 

 

As some have said, go out and practice this higher up. Itll be a little different than the real thing but still good practice. 

[aviatoreb]

On 8/24/2021 at 10:50 AM, jlunseth said:

One of the best things you can do is look at your home airport in google earth and figure out where you might land, other than the airport, in the event of an engine out at low altitude. Then go up in the pattern and actually survey the airport, take pictures, decide where you might be able to go. If you have a nice, straight ahead landing in good terrain then why even try to return. At our local airport, on the other hand, about half the landings would be water landings and most would be in a swamp. West traveling landings would be in soccer fields that are full of kids most afternoons. 

Yes - I figure (guess) probably 60 % of all my take offs are at my home airport.  At least we can know our home airport options really well.