Looking for advice

[Towner]

I have a 1967 F model that has been a hanger queen for 10 years. Realizing I won't get a medical, it is time to sell. Here is my problem...

The airframe has 3800 hours on it, the engine has almost 1800 smoh. I was putting it through an annual so I could sell it. Sadly, they didn't borescope the engine first. While we are still tinkering with the engine, I think it really needs another overhaul. 

Do I try to sell it as is, or send the engine off to Jewel for an overhaul before trying to sell it? How much should I be looking at for a sale price in both conditions. Other suggestions are appreciated too.

A little more about the plane; airframe is in really good shape. No corrosion issues. Airframe annual was just completed. Paint and glass are in pretty good shape. Interior is older, but in good shape. No rips or tears, plastic is good except panels by feet. Avionics are old (155 and 170b), but I believe everything works except the Brittain auto pilot. It does have a fuel flow computer. Some of the work in the last month; new main gear pucks, new battery, new elt battery, all new fuel and oil lines in the engine compartment, fuel servo just rebuilt and a few other items.

It's time to sell, I'm just not sure which way to go and a reasonable value with or without o/h.

Thanks in advance! 

[carusoam]

Towner,

It is just like any other machine or house…

Any upgrade you make will cost a lot of money….

It might not be appreciated by the new owner…

The net price you get will be the same…  more or less…

 

Nobody really wants to buy a plane with a new engine either…

Fully broken in with 100 hours on it… now that adds value.

 

Price as is, where is… needing an OH. (As you described here)

There are plenty of people looking for exactly that…

 

I think…  and tinkering with…   Didn’t describe what you know.

Play with an open hand… you could sell this within weeks… while the market is still warm.

 

Start a thread….

Plane for sale….

pics…

Details…

Hours on everything…

Price guides include all the variables like new engine, or half time engine…

 

If you were to hang a different engine on it and fly it for a year… it would get the best return…

Since you are not able to fly…  that adds to your challenge…

In most cases… best deals are closed quickly… dragging your feet longer just cost more for hangar, insurance, and fighting off Mother Nature…

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

 

In some cases… a mechanic will be interested in buying the plane and doing all the work… and putting the hours on it… then sell it…

For a mechanic around here that just released Fat Albert the Mooney….  Find @Alan Fox.

 

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

There is a lot of cost uncertainty if you decide to overhaul.  Bad case? Bad crank?  Other things may come up.  Seems like best case you will just get back the extra money you put in but a good chance you will get back less.  If you can get into annual for a reasonable cost then that may be worth it as it allows the buyer to test fly it or move it for inspection.  If you can’t get the annual without an engine overhaul I’d sell it without an annual rather than take the risk of major work.

keep in mind I am likely the least qualified person on the forum to give out advice, but that’s my take.  

[Towner]

The annual is basically done. Engine is running. Fuel flow and ignition are good, but I'm worried about cylinders and cam from sitting. Did a cold compression check,, but not warm yet. I think the cylinders will be within compression tolarances, but probably on the low side. We will be checking more into this next week, but otherwise any major work is done.

If it needs an overhaul and I sell it "as is", what is a fair price? How about if the engine is signed off, just old and tired?  I really don't know where to start for pricing. 

I probably won't go the overhaul route because of the unknown factor, plus if someone wants a new overhaul, they would probably prefer to have it done at their shop of choice. 

I guess my biggest issue is value. I'm not looking to rip anyone off, but I don't want to get screwed either. Obviously, I'm not trying to hide anything or I wouldn't be posting it here. I'm just trying to get a game plan together for when it is officially for sale in the next week or two. I haven't been in the Mooney market for 20 years and never had to deal with pricing a plane with a really tired or run out engine.

By the way, thanks to Light Sport, I am flying again! 

 

[carusoam]

Find the MooneyFlyer…

It has a price calculator in it…

Click the boxes that best represent what you have…

See what it says…

Put in different hours for the engine…

See what the affect on price is…

A brand new engine, fully installed can be around 50AMU…

Factory remanufactured, installed can be 40AMU…

Local OH can be in the 30AMU range…

Remove and repair as needed is more like 20AMU…. Not very sensible of something with high time…

Rough estimates of all the options available…

 

To assess what you have requires removal of cylinders… one at a time…

To see the health of the cam and the follower… the things that ride on the cam…

 

If you run the engine without checking these details… you risk bad followers cutting the lobes off the cam….  Causing an OH requirement… metal bits will start showing up in the filter over time…

Max power becomes lower as the cam lobes turn into nubs…

 

Have no fear being honest…   The logs pretty much tell the story…  the same price calculator is available to both the buyer and the seller…

 

PP thoughts of what has happened around here in the past…. There are pics of what the cam and followers look like from planes that haven’t flown….  
 

It doesn’t have to happen… it could be a 50/50 situation…

 

You are miles ahead of the guy that OH’d his engine thinking he was going to get his medical back… then had his new engine sit for a decade… 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Towner]

Thanks for the info on MooneyFlyer. Being out of the game for 10 years is like starting over on plane info!

[carusoam]

13 minutes ago, Towner said:

Thanks for the info on MooneyFlyer. Being out of the game for 10 years is like starting over on plane info!

Hang around here for a while…. You are not alone…

There are all kinds of methods getting your med back…

And one recently was a Class I, get back to work kind…

 

There are many examples of getting FAA special issuances…. Aka SIs…

For people that need to demonstrate their unique skills… there are SODAs

 

For assigning prices to planes… things have been modernized a bit…. We used to use the MapaLog… it was just a paper version of the same thing…

Jimmy Garrison at GMax… is the king of pricing Mooneys…. He might even offer that as a service… He has sold more Mooneys than anyone else on the planet…

He can be found around here as well…

Have you seen the Basic Med route to flying again?

Many people are now using Basic Med in place of the usual Class III medical…

 

About me…  I went SI, OH’d my engine, then went basic med…   No plan to sell yet…   
 

What is it you really want to do?
 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

A similar discussion for pricing a Mooney…. Recent.

-a-

 

[Towner]

Thanks for the encouragement for a med, but it won't happen. It's now light sport for me. I bought a flight design in December and it's been a blast, but sucks that it only has two seats. Family vacations in the plane are now out of the question. It's still faster than the old cherokee I once owned!

An f or j model mooney was what I always wanted. At least I had one and got to put about 500 hours on it. I kept it for me, hoping the medical changes would let me fly it again, but it is not gonna happen. Just happy to be flying anything again! 

[carusoam]

Fantastic!

Post a pic of the Flight Design…

There is a thread around here…. Where people have posted pics of the other planes they have in the hangar…

The more the MSers get to know you… the easier the conversations about the Mooney can be…

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

For me, when I look at a used aircraft and it says "recent O/H" unless it is a factory reman it means nothing to me because I've seen so many crappy O/Hs. I usually put that airplane on the back burner because you cannot adjudicate. I recently saw a C-182 with an O/H be purchased. It is being O/H again because that O/H engine could not be flown without the cowl flaps wide open. After about 50 hours it vibrated badly. While not illegal, hardware was re-used on it that most people replace. Bottom line is this. When I go looking if it says "recent O/H" that O/H has to be a known quantity like a factory reman or I will O/H it myself and get it the way I want it. So in this case? Sell it as is. Knowledgable buyers will recognize it. 

 

[Towner]

I appreciate the the thoughts on the overhaul route. I figured if it was done by a well known outfit, people would be happy and it would make it easier to sell. After a couple of posted comments, I see that may not be the case!

[Mooneymite]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

For me, when I look at a used aircraft and it says "recent O/H" unless it is a factory reman it means nothing to me because I've seen so many crappy O/Hs.  as is. Knowledgable buyers will recognize it. 

 

I agree, in principle, that buying a plane with a run-out engine is really a better deal (if properly discounted) because you really never know "the whole story" of an engine unless you have owned it from 0 time.

I am familiar with too many technical prop strikes and other "secrets" that never made it into log books.  If given the choice, I prefer the @GeeBee idea of assuming the engine needs a replacement and making my own decisions concerning replacement.

However, getting a seller to properly discount a run-out engine is very difficult.  You get the "Oh, that engine will definitely go beyond TBO".   

[DCarlton]

13 hours ago, Towner said:

I have a 1967 F model that has been a hanger queen for 10 years. Realizing I won't get a medical, it is time to sell. Here is my problem...

The airframe has 3800 hours on it, the engine has almost 1800 smoh. I was putting it through an annual so I could sell it. Sadly, they didn't borescope the engine first. While we are still tinkering with the engine, I think it really needs another overhaul. 

Do I try to sell it as is, or send the engine off to Jewel for an overhaul before trying to sell it? How much should I be looking at for a sale price in both conditions. Other suggestions are appreciated too.

A little more about the plane; airframe is in really good shape. No corrosion issues. Airframe annual was just completed. Paint and glass are in pretty good shape. Interior is older, but in good shape. No rips or tears, plastic is good except panels by feet. Avionics are old (155 and 170b), but I believe everything works except the Brittain auto pilot. It does have a fuel flow computer. Some of the work in the last month; new main gear pucks, new battery, new elt battery, all new fuel and oil lines in the engine compartment, fuel servo just rebuilt and a few other items.

It's time to sell, I'm just not sure which way to go and a reasonable value with or without o/h.

Thanks in advance! 

Sell it like it is.  I have a '67F with less than 70 hours SMOH, newer three blade prop, EDM730, GNS430, good paint and a recent annual.  Everything works.  It's very clean but will eventually need a tank reseal.  I could probably list it for $85K; doubt it would sell for more unless someone needs a flyaway airplane that needs nothing immediate.  An engine overhaul is gonna cost you $30K+ by the time you are done.  Unless your plane is spotless with everything working, I doubt you'll sell if for $80K after overhaul.  I haven't seen it but I'd say list it for $55K and see what happens.  You won't get back what you put in to it.  My two cents anyway...  

Edited August 13, 2021 by DCarlton

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, Towner said:

I appreciate the the thoughts on the overhaul route. I figured if it was done by a well known outfit, people would be happy and it would make it easier to sell. After a couple of posted comments, I see that may not be the case!

Not knowing more about your plane it sounds like it is a great starter plane for someone on a budget and less of a project plane.  Having no corrosion is a huge plus - that is the sort of thing that is usually not economically repairable.  As you say "pretty good paint and glass" is perfect for a first time buyer.  So what if the interior is dated but good shape - most people buy Mooney's to fly, not to just look at.  You haven't said anything about the condition of the tanks (tight or leaking) so I will assume they are good.  That model has manual gear I believe - so a buyer gets the speed benefit of gear retraction with simplicity.  It sounds like you have the landing gear suspension, fuel and ignition system operating properly and brittle/deteriorating parts replaced.  It has a fuel flow computer which is a nice option.

And it is running.  It is airworthy.  It is flyable.

So now you are concerned about the long term viability of the engine and the dated panel (no ADSB-out I assume) and inop auto pilot.  

Let the prospective Buyer deal with that.  Once it is airworthy don't spend any more on it.  You won't get additional spending back.  With all the options in avionics now an entry buyer on a budget may like the "blank canvas".

And if your conscience is bothering you regarding watching a buyer fly off with that engine, consider offering to refund in the prebuy (if they purchase) the cost of borescoping the cylinders and valves and cost to pull a jug to look at the cam.  That way, as you say, nothing is hidden and all parties know.  And who knows - although a lot of people get their panties in a wad hearing the age and hours, there may be some life left in that rugged Lycoming.

I have no idea on valve but the pool of low cost entry level certified planes with that combination of performance and payload is shrinking.  There seems to be a lot of market interest.

Edited August 13, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[Jerry 5TJ]

An alternative opinion—if you have an engine IRAN with a decent shop then you can in better conscience offer the plane to a buyer.  

[jaylw314]

Buyers run the gamut in terms of their perceptions of engine time.  Most buyers are like I was, drawn to the perceived security of a recently rebuilt or overhauled motor.  Over time, I realize I got pretty lucky and should have gone for a run out motor with the plan to do it myself later.  While I think the latter is the smarter and more risk/benefit effective, I'm guessing there are still a ton of the former type buyers out there.

The only caveat I can think of is that a significant number of buyers may need to be financing the purchase of the plane.  For them, it may be more practical for them to finance the cost of a plane with a newer motor.  They may not be able to afford a less expensive plane if they can't afford the upfront cost of an overhaul in the near future.

Edited August 13, 2021 by jaylw314

[Towner]

I would Iran the engine if it was lower time, but not with almost 1800 hours. For those asking about the tanks, 54 gallon bladders kept full the whole time! Fuel coming through is clean! I did drain most of the old fuel when we started work and put new stuff in it.

The panel is old, but should work fine for vfr and light ifr. I'm sure it will be upgraded eventually by a new owner. It really comes down to an engine, which I'll know for sure probably this week if it's gonna be signed off. If so, annual is complete except needs transponder check. No ads, but the shop has a wingtip version that was supposed to be used on another plane. They said they would make a deal on it, but I thought it best no to add it in case a new owner wanted something more advanced. Nice thing about the airframe is no damage history. Hard to find. Bad thing is not a single speed mod! Also hard to find!

[Towner]

And it's replacement...