PA24 long distance flight ends in a dwelling

[tigers2007]

This just happened about two hours ago in Lyon Twp, Michigan (NE of Ann Arbor). I’m curious if this was a fuel exhaustion issue. I know we have some MS’rs based out of that field...

 

 

 

 

 

[Cruiser]

did you listen to the tapes? should be talking to Detroit approach.

only about 3hours in flight with a tail wind, should not have been an issue 

[tigers2007]

did you listen to the tapes? should be talking to Detroit approach.
only about 3hours in flight with a tail wind, should not have been an issue 

Im listening right now; can only hear Detroit Approach. Start it at the 2-min mark. At 4-min in (1534 local) he must have an issue “47P say intention?” Since the feed is PTK’s it has clutter from Clearance Delivery as the scanner is monitoring several frequencies. There might be another feed on 132.35mhz. I’ll have to look.

https://archive-server.liveatc.net/kptk/KPTK1-Del-Gnd-Jan-02-2021-2030Z.mp3

[tigers2007]

Well after zooming into the tracking I doubt it’s fuel exhaustion...

[Andy95W]

That’s my airport.  The weather has been low IFR pretty much all day and probably icing conditions in the clouds.  His track looks like he flew the VOR-A (the only instrument approach).  It looks like he was trying to turn to downwind for runway 8, which is what the winds were favoring.

If I knew the pilot, I didn’t know him well.

[Niko182]

2 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

That’s my airport.  The weather has been low IFR pretty much all day and probably icing conditions in the clouds.  His track looks like he flew the VOR-A (the only instrument approach).

If I knew the pilot, I didn’t know him well.

Y47 is also the airport I grew up at. My parents owned a 231 from 1998 to 2007 there. Fond memories there for sure.

[tigers2007]

I did notice an oddity with ATC radio chatter to the doomed aircraft how a Learjet reported a “200 MSL” ceiling in the vicinity (and repeated that). The airport itself is 926 MSL... I wonder if that further confused the pilot.

[philiplane]

Comanches like this have 5 hour minimum endurance. Appears this one has been with the same owner since 2006, so the accident is not due to an un-familiarity issue.

Appears to be a splat as a result of a circling approach with low ceilings. The most hazardous approach there is.

[tigers2007]

Yeah this is a bizarre one. The approach controller advised him twice of a ceiling of “200 MSL” which even if translated to AGL, the VOR-A MDA is 1580-1 (624 AGL). Why on earth would he bother to even “take a look”? PTK, OZW, ARB, and YIP are really not that far away and all have ILS/LPV approaches.

[Andy95W]

I found out a little more information.  The weather at the closest reporting airport at the time of the accident was 500 overcast and the surface temperature was 33°F.  Icing was reported in the area, though not specifically at the location of the accident. 

Initial altitude for the approach is 2700, which would have put the airplane at/above the freezing level.  500 foot ceilings is 154 lower than the minimums for the approach.

A trusted friend of mine spoke with a controller at Detroit approach who said the accident airplane flew the ground track of the approach, but didn’t descend until over the airport where he performed a spiral.  I can’t confirm this, but the FlightAware data seems to support it.

Lastly, I don’t know if the owner was the actual pilot flying.  The owner does not have an instrument rating.

Sad on many different levels.

[Jerry 5TJ]

A long flight, PIREPs for icing and turbulence, a low freezing level, a non-precision approach with reported ceiling below MDA, a fairly short and narrow runway, and no instrument rating.  What could possibly go wrong?  

[tigers2007]

Did the pilot file IFR? I thought that if FlightAware shows a route then it’s IFR. No official confirmation yet if the non-IFR rated registered owner was actual the PIC.

[Brian E.]

35 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

Did the pilot file IFR? I thought that if FlightAware shows a route then it’s IFR. No official confirmation yet if the non-IFR rated registered owner was actual the PIC.

 

With ADSB out all of my flights show up on FlightAware.  He did cruise at 8k so I would assume that he was flying IFR.  I haven't listened to the audio to verify or determine if he was just cruising at an IFR altitude versus IFR services/flight plan.   Edit:  I just listened to the recording and he was receiving IFR services, cleared approach VOR or GPS-A approach and advised of the low ceilings (300 is what I heard).  Certainly too low of a ceiling for a circling approach.  Time will yield more answers.

[tigers2007]

The pilot was indeed talking to Detroit Approach (I posted a link above that starts at 15:30hrs local). ATC clears the pilot for the VOR-A into the airport. There is a moment when ATC asks “state your intentions”. Granted it’s my understanding that ATC has no clue if the PIC has a current IFR. Unfortunately the recording only has the ATC side of the radio comm’s and not the actual doomed aircraft. I believe there was another Mooney in the air en route to PTK at the time of the crash that was talking to the same Approach controller; maybe they’re a member here?

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

A long flight, PIREPs for icing and turbulence, a low freezing level, a non-precision approach with reported ceiling below MDA, a fairly short and narrow runway, and no instrument rating.  What could possibly go wrong?  

⬆️⬆️⬆️

Exactly.  The news reported today the owner was flying the airplane with his wife and son.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Accident was around 2045 Zulu.  

Weather wasn’t terrible at that time, based on nearby METARS, but the VOR approach into Y47 was clearly not going to work.

Too bad he didn’t divert to PTK a dozen miles NE where an ILS and LPV are available.  

 

[Andy95W]

Without an instrument rating, he didn’t know how to fly an ILS.  He knew just enough about the system to file IFR to get to a visual approach and land.  Truthfully, he was dead before he got to Michigan, he just didn’t know it.

[gsxrpilot]

If the pilot was in fact, not instrument rated, accepting that approach makes more sense. An instrument rated pilot would have likely decided to go to PTK or somewhere else, a hundred miles sooner.

[Cruiser]

does anyone know the cloud tops at the time ? 

It is a common belief among VFR pilots that they can fly the lateral guidance of the approach at an altitude above the clouds and then spiral down over the airport to break out in visual conditions for a landing. 

[Jim Peace]

When you strap on n a lawnmower with wings you become invincible....

 

 

 

[David Lloyd]

Flew over the airport still a little high for the circling approach, makes a 270 degree turn to the left looking for the airport but with a little wind from the southeast is now a half mile north of the airport and fixates on Pontiac Trail that almost parallels the runway.  Opps, that's not the runway, another circle, got slow looking for the airport now even further away.  Too slow, end of game.

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Cruiser said:

It is a common belief among VFR pilots that they can fly the lateral guidance of the approach at an altitude above the clouds and then spiral down over the airport to break out in visual conditions for a landing. 

Wow.  I hope you’re wrong about that being widely believed, but it’s possible, alas.  

I’ve read that in the 1920 -30s pilots trapped on top would sometimes deliberately spin down through the clouds as they knew a stable spin could be maintained with no attitude instruments. 

Me, I’d rather fly a coupled LPV approach.  

 

[PeteMc]

I've heard of VFR pilots being taught to spiral down through a VFR hole.  But NEVER do any kind of turn if it's a NO CHOICE situation and you have to go through the clouds.

Don't exactly remember my Primary VFR training.   But I think in the Piper it was something like:

• Get lined up in the direction I wanted to go
• Pull back to 1700RPM (1500?)
• 1 notch of flaps
• Trim for 500 down
• Then DON'T TOUCH anything and keep the wings level with the AI. 

(All of the above has nothing to do with what might have happened to the PA24 - None of us where there....)

 

[Schllc]

9 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Did the pilot file IFR? I thought that if FlightAware shows a route then it’s IFR. No official confirmation yet if the non-IFR rated registered owner was actual the PIC.

Flight aware will track every flight of a plane that has adsb. If it’s filed, it will usually have a “filed” speed, and would show a route in the form of a white dashed line. 
if it’s a car flight it just shows a track. 
This is of course, assumes the planes owner hasn’t blocked the tail number. 
this flight looks like the pilot filed. 

[irishpilot]

I'd be interested to see what the NTSB final report says. Like most accidents, there is a chain of events that led to this. From what is available, here are the things for us to think about without knowing all the details of this specific accident:

1. Avoid wx that exceeds your capability or the plane's. 

2. Don't fly into IMC without an IFR rating. This may seem obvious, but "get-thereits" can drive decisions that put pilots into wx they are not able to handle.

3. Continue practicing and understanding your plane's avionics so that you can use them to shed pilot loading when situations arise. I think of John F. Kennedy Jr's spatial D crash when there was a working autopilot which he never engaged. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2010/july/pilot/10-mistakes-jfk-jr-made

4. For those of us who are IFR-rated, practice hand-flown approaches down to mins under with a view-limiting device. Also practice it with your coupled autopilot to ensure you know which gates to look for (when the RNAV switches from enroute to terminal, etc.). 

5. Circling at mins is a perishable skill. Especially, when executing missed during the circle. Either practice circling enough so that you are comfortable with doing so at mins, or file to a destination that doesn't require it if you are uncomfortable. Circling right under an overcast ceiling with great vis isn't bad, but doing so right at the vis approach limit is much more difficult.

5. If you fly in IMC there are two types of pilots: those who have diverted to a wx alternate and those who will. When mission planning, walk through what you'll need to do to get to your original destination (does that airport have Uber service, or will family come to get you). When I was weekly commuting to see my family, I had my wife get the notifications on FlightAware and she'd track me to see if I was going to my original destination or going to the nearby regional airport with an ILS. We always had a backup plan and a GO/NO-GO decision. This helps fight the "get-thereits".

6. Lastly, have a solid GO/NO-GO decision that you've thought through BEFORE your big family ski trip, or your trip to X destination.