CoffeeCan Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) I just got my M20K/231 back from the Annual From Hell. I offer this tale as an example of what can go badly for you if you make the same mistake I did. I took my airplane in for annual to be done by a reputable shop in Corpus Christi, TX, where I lived at the time. This was in August. I just picked the airplane up, finally, yesterday. The dollars expended in the interim were considerable, and could have been avoided if I had been a bit smarter. A bit of background: my bird is a 1985 Mooney231 that I bought in 2018 from a reputable dealer. The airplane had relatively low time for its age, about 3500 TT. It had had an engine overhaul done in 2016 by a shop in Oklahoma, and the engine had been installed by a different shop than the one that did the rebuild, and at the time I purchased the aircraft it had only 80 hours on the new engine. The price was good, right in the sweet spot of my budget, so I pulled the trigger. I had a prebuy done by an A&P recommended by the dealer. The prebuy was reported as good, log books passed inspection, no major issues were identified, so I bought the airplane of my dreams. I liked the A&P who did the prebuy, and had him do the subsequent annual in 2019. As it turned out, both the prebuy and the annual were not done well. I did not take it back to that A&P this year because I was unhappy with some engine instrument issues that he had not addressed for me. Specifically, my JPI 830 was giving me CHT, EGT, and oil temp readings that were significantly lower than my panel instruments. As the 830 is not rated as a primary, I had to reconcile the difference (I trusted the JPI much more than the panel gauges, based on a lot of evaluation in flight and on the ground). Also, I was not getting the performance from this engine that the books said I should be expecting... it was behaving more like my friend's 252, which is an old 1800-hour powerplant. My A&P dismissed my concerns, saying that "you just can't expect an overhauled engine to do as well as a factory rebuilt engine". I wasn't satisfied, and decided to have somebody else give my airplane a good going-over. The new shop was closer to home in any event, so my decision to switch was made. The new shop started finding serious problems with my airplane almost immediately. They called me to come in and look at the engine a week after I left it with them. The first problem they noted was that there were some very bad exhaust leaks from all 6 cylinders; these were due to the new/overhauled engine being installed with Lycoming exhaust gaskets, not Continental gaskets. This had caused significant erosion to the cylinder bases, and the exhaust stack on the right side of the engine. Three cylinders had to be removed and worked on to flatten out the erosions, and the exhaust pipes on the right side had to be replaced. Moreover, there was extensive heat damage to the instrument wires on both sides of the engine, both the panel instrument wires and the JPI wires. There was also some damage to the Merlyn wastegate, which was sent to Merlyn for inspection and overhaul. The Merlyn wastegate had been installed incorrectly, they said, and needed overhaul. As a final kick in the nuts, the damage to the #6 cylinder was bad enough that the cylinder needed to be replaced. The bad news continued. A thorough logbook check revealed that the plane had not been weighed for a new weight and balance since 2003, and considerable equipment had been added by the previous owner, so the airplane was technically illegal for flight since that time. The propeller logbook had not been updated. Actually, none of the logbooks were up to date or in compliance with regs. As a result, some major work milestones had been neglected. For example, it turned out that the McCauley 3-blade constant speed prop was 6 years overdue for inspection and overhaul. We sent it in, and the factory determined that the governor was so badly neglected that it was too far gone for overhaul and a new governor was required. It wasn't said outright that I was lucky the prop hadn't fallen off the airplane in flight, but it was implied. The de-ice boots were also well past their rated service life and needed replacement. And so on, and so on. The mechanics showed me badly eroded oil lines and fuel lines (some were heat-damaged by the exhaust leaks, as well), which all had to be replaced. The heat damage to the instruments wires required replacement of all those lines, of course. The main landing gear were not set to spec and hadn't been for years per the log books. Both fuel tanks leaked and required relining. The oxygen tank was almost 5 years past its service life and although the FAA doesn't mandate replacement, the new shop recommended this be done. I did some reading on that, talked to another A&P who concurred, and elected to replace that as well. The list of repairs needed was staggering. I was in the shop to look at problems almost every week. We waited for parts, for factory inspections and repairs on components, and the weeks dragged into months. The neglect of previous owners and the failure of the mechanics working on the airplane to do their due diligence had taken a real toll on my airplane, and the responsibility was all on me to deal with it. I finally got my bird back in the air last week. I took it for a 2-hour test flight, and spend a good bit of time with the mechanics before and after to determine the engine settings needed for break-in of the new cylinder and to properly evaluate the airplane's overall performance. I followed the list of tasks to the letter, and I was really pleased to see that my airplane is now giving me book numbers for performance. The downside, though was that the invoice total was really, really high. As in I could have bought another overhauled engine and had it installed for this amount of money high. I am glad to have a fully functional M20K now. This is the bird I thought I was buying in 2018, although the extra costs aren't making me happy. (I'm not sure if I have any recourse for the negligence of the shop that installed the overhauled engine in 2016 using the wrong parts, or for the negligence of the A&P who did the pre-buy and failed to note obvious exhaust leaks, the incomplete logbooks (that he stated in writing were complete) or the many out-of-date items like the prop and O2 tank. If I had been adequately informed by the pre-buy I would not have bought the airplane, obviously. If any of y'all here are attorneys as well as Mooniacs, and would care to offer advice on that score, I'd appreciate getting a PM.) Lessons learned. A pre-buy inspection needs to be done by somebody with some standing in this industry. And you need to vet the shop(s) you use for maintenance much more thoroughly than I did in the first case. Mea culpa. Edited December 8, 2020 by CoffeeCan 1 6 Quote
neilpilot Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 51 minutes ago, CoffeeCan said: I had a prebuy done by an A&P recommended by the dealer. Is this equivalent to the seller selecting the prebuy A&P? 5 Quote
KLRDMD Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 1 hour ago, CoffeeCan said: A bit of background: my bird is a 1986 vintage 231 that I bought in 2018 from a reputable dealer. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Just one correction, your 231 is a 1985. They didn't make any 231s in 1986; "K" models in 1986 were 252s. Serial #25-0842 to 25-0889 are 1985 Mooney 231s. Quote
CoffeeCan Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Posted December 8, 2020 32 minutes ago, KLRDMD said: Sorry to hear of your troubles. Just one correction, your 231 is a 1985. They didn't make any 231s in 1986; "K" models in 1986 were 252s. Serial #25-0842 to 25-0889 are 1985 Mooney 231s. Of course, you're right. Typo on my part, which I've corrected. Quote
Tim Jodice Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 Sorry to hear about you experience. I had a similar experience with my first airplane. You don't know what you don't know. Nice to see your positive attitude now that the airplane is done and performs as it should. I think it is great that the shop kept you involved and showed you first hand what the problems were. While a very expensive annual you got to see for yourself why it cost what it cost and not show up to pick up you airplane and have a huge unexpected bill. 2 Quote
CoffeeCan Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Posted December 8, 2020 1 hour ago, neilpilot said: Is this equivalent to the seller selecting the prebuy A&P? No, not at all. The seller suggested several shops he liked, and the one at his airport was the one I chose for the sake of convenience. Quote
CoffeeCan Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Posted December 8, 2020 28 minutes ago, Tim Jodice said: Sorry to hear about you experience. I had a similar experience with my first airplane. You don't know what you don't know. Nice to see your positive attitude now that the airplane is done and performs as it should. I think it is great that the shop kept you involved and showed you first hand what the problems were. While a very expensive annual you got to see for yourself why it cost what it cost and not show up to pick up you airplane and have a huge unexpected bill. Tim, thanks for your comment. You don't know what you don't know, indeed! I can't help but try to keep a positive attitude, you know? I mean, I persist in getting into mechanical devices that defy gravity and take me places in a speedy fashion... if that doesn't require keeping a positive attitude, I don't know what does! 6 Quote
Niko182 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, CoffeeCan said: No, not at all. The seller suggested several shops he liked, and the one at his airport was the one I chose for the sake of convenience. I did this when purchasing 52Q. We picked a shop on the field recommended by the seller to do a prebuy and spent somewhere around 800 bucks for it. 1 year later during its annual, the bill ended up being around 17k. You live and you learn. 1 Quote
StevenL757 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 Can't agree more. Went through a similar nightmare when I bought my first airplane - a Socata TB9. Airplane worth somewhere near $45k, and thanks to not knowing about the importance of pre-buys then, that first annual ended up somewhere in the $15.5k area. Never again. Absolutely live and learn. Quote
tmo Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 2 hours ago, CoffeeCan said: The oxygen tank was almost 5 years past its service life and although the FAA doesn't mandate replacement, the new shop recommended this be done. So, for a steel tank, does one just need a "normal" hydro-static test and then it's all good for another 5 years? Kudos for the positive attitude, sorry you picked the short straw. Quote
RobertGary1 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 I'll make a couple comments. There is no required interval for prop inspection. The manufacture has a recommendation that probably less than 5% of GA pilots follow. I wouldn't find that unexpected. You mention the plane had not be weighed. Its not the norm to re-weigh a plane at any time. Typically the W&B is amended with the weight of the equipment removed vs the weight of equipment added. That is legally required. But a full scale re-weight is not required. Not sure if that is what you meant. -Robert 2 Quote
chriscalandro Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) To follow, Weighing the airplane wasn't required, so that's not a thing. The prop is on condition, not time, unless you are running a commercial operation. These things are on you, not the previous owner. Those times should have been in the log book. It's not that they were missing from the logbook, it's that the work was not done. As for the engine and wiring stuff - If the JPI is reading very differently from the primary instruments, there isn't a whole lot you can do other than replacing the primary instruments. That's not a thing a mechanic can really fix. As for the exhaust leaks and wiring damage, it's possible this was not evident at the last annual, and should have been noticed during interim preventative maint. I personally don't let me airplane fly more than 25 hours without pulling the cowling off and having a look. I don't think you can blame the A&P for that either. The only thing you CAN blame someone else for is using the wrong gaskets. I don't know the difference between the Lycoming and Continental gaskets, so I can't comment on that. The rest is poor inspection interval throughout the usage of the year. I've never seen an airplane that gets inspected and is not periodically checked throughout the year. That's on you duder. Also, where is your CO monitor. If your exhaust leak was that bad for sure you should have seen some indication. Edited December 8, 2020 by chriscalandro 3 Quote
kortopates Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 Sorry to read this. I understand the engine installer used the wrong gaskets installing the exhaust when they hung the engine. But what about every oil change after that which includes a basic inspection of the exhaust system for leaks. I guess nobody saw it but the pre-buy and annual mechanic? There weren't any oil changes besides those done by the same pre-buy mechanic? Only mentioning because every oil change is an opportunity to check for exhaust leaks that were missed yet should have been noticed much earlier. There is no requirement to ever re-weight the airplane. Its standard practice to maintain the weight and balance as a series of add's and minuses to equipment using their weight and location station. Are you saying no accounting of the avionics updates where ever made? That's terrible and illegal for any change of a pound or more unless the wt & bal was being updated as required. Ditto for what Robert said on the prop. Most of steel tanks do have life limit of 24 years, while different steel tanks used for the smaller portable ones have no limit. Kevlar tanks have a 15 yr limit but 115 cuft kevlar tanks weight the same as a 77 cuft steel tank. Since a few of these raise the question of unneeded maintenance, perhaps in addition to the miss-installed gaskets, you would have been much better served by some better professional advice in maintaining your aircraft as a new owner. That's a tough $ way to learn. 3 1 Quote
EricJ Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) I'll add that it seems like the new shop didn't really do you right, either, by doing a bunch of maintenance that may not have been necessary. As mentioned, a re-weigh is never really required as long as alterations are properly assessed and a new w&b computed from the old one. After a long while the errors can accumulate where a re-weigh may be a reasonable idea, but it is not required. So it sounds like you maybe got dragged over the coals multiple times on both ends of the maintenance spectrum: somebody not doing enough and somebody doing too much. Here's hoping in the future you find a mechanic and IA that falls more in the happy middle. Edited December 8, 2020 by EricJ 2 1 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted December 8, 2020 Report Posted December 8, 2020 I wonder if this new shop drug him through the whole 135 ringer. Making him do SB's etc. Perhaps that's what he means by the log books were out of date with missing inspections? Maybe the shop was a 135 jet shop??? -Robert 1 Quote
CoffeeCan Posted December 8, 2020 Author Report Posted December 8, 2020 Fellas, I appreciate the input and comments. Yes, a lot of this is on me. Again, I didn't know what I didn't know. I appreciate the inputs. 6 Quote
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, kortopates said: There is no requirement to ever re-weight the airplane. Its standard practice to maintain the weight and balance as a series of add's and minuses to equipment using their weight and location station. Are you saying no accounting of the avionics updates where ever made? That's terrible and illegal for any change of a pound or more unless the wt & bal was being updated as required. Ditto for what Robert said on the prop. Most of steel tanks do have life limit of 24 years, while different steel tanks used for the smaller portable ones have no limit. Kevlar tanks have a 15 yr limit but 115 cuft kevlar tanks weight the same as a 77 cuft steel tank. I am sure I have not represented the Wt & Balance discussion adequately. I looked at the logbooks with current mechanic and he showed me the lack of updates to logs for addition of avionics. The only W&B entry for avionics was for the new ADS/B transceiver I had installed in 2019. Sorry I misunderstood on the prop... from what I was told, McCauley had a hard recommendation for inspection of the prop governor. Mine was in poor state, as previously noted. The oxygen tank issue was as you stated... I opted for the larger kevlar tank to replace the old steel one. I think. Quote
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, EricJ said: I'll add that it seems like the new shop didn't really do you right, either, by doing a bunch of maintenance that may not have been necessary. As mentioned, a re-weigh is never really required as long as alterations are properly assessed and a new w&b computed from the old one. After a long while the errors can accumulate where a re-weigh may be a reasonable idea, but it is not required. So it sounds like you maybe got dragged over the coals multiple times on both ends of the maintenance spectrum: somebody not doing enough and somebody doing too much. Here's hoping in the future you find a mechanic and IA that falls more in the happy middle. Eric, I have been concerned on exactly that score. I am resolved to do some further research on the Mooney-savvy mechanics in north and west Texas now who I might engage for further maintenance, hoping to hit that middle ground. Any recommendations from members here would be appreciated. Quote
KLRDMD Posted December 9, 2020 Report Posted December 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, CoffeeCan said: Eric, I have been concerned on exactly that score. I am resolved to do some further research on the Mooney-savvy mechanics in north and west Texas now who I might engage for further maintenance, hoping to hit that middle ground. Any recommendations from members here would be appreciated. If you're in Texas, just go to Don Maxwell and be done with it. 5 Quote
CoffeeCan Posted December 9, 2020 Author Report Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) Ken, have you looked at a map of Texas? Yes, I'm in TX, but I'm farther from Don than you are from San Diego... Still, it's an idea already under consideration. Edited December 9, 2020 by CoffeeCan 1 2 Quote
Hank Posted December 9, 2020 Report Posted December 9, 2020 @gsxrpilot should have some Tejas recommendations, complete with names, airport codes and PIREPs, in addition to the Maxwells at KGGG. 1 Quote
Matt Ward Posted December 9, 2020 Report Posted December 9, 2020 I'm sorry you've gone through this, but it's not a certainty a pre-buy would have found all the stuff you've outlined. As mentioned, there is no hard spec for what constitutes a pre-buy and many of those items sound a bit subjective. Pre-buys tend to be given a lot of weight, and hopefully they do help you avoid dumpster fires, but some of this is learning to be an airplane owner. If you haven't read the Mike Busch books, do. He talks a lot about maximalist and minimalist A&Ps, on-time and on-condition, etc. It's good stuff to know as you learn how to own - a challenging and unique skill from piloting. And unfortunately, maintenance doesn't stop. More items are going to wear and you're going to have to constantly make calls on what you can live with or alternatives: I just made the decision that an electric blanket is a better solution to a cold back seat than pulling a rear seat and re-taping! Vita doctrix, fellow owner, and congrats on the plane! BTW...don't ask your guy to look at your donuts... Quote
Immelman Posted December 9, 2020 Report Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) OP, I'm sorry for your bad experience. But it sounds like a combination of things here - some poorly done prior work, but also some new airplane owner learning, curve. Hopefully this is the worst of it and its behind you. For example - if the exhaust gaskets were bad and caused a leak and all that subsequent failure.... that is awful! If you spend time with your bird and have the cowl off periodically to look around, you'll soon learn what exhaust leaks and heat damage look like, and will be better prepared to take corrective action before collateral damage occurs. Are you aware that propeller overhauls might be recommended.... but not required, if you are operating under part 91? Fuel tank leaks come in many sizes and severity. Some are airworthiness items, some are not... they don't tend to get better. But some you can live with, safely, some you cannot. The Mooney service manual discusses these in detail. And so on.... The more time and mental energy you invest into the maintenance side of this, the more educated and efficient your spending and down-time decisions will be. It does take time. Finding a GOOD A&P/IA to consult with along the way is huge. Someone who operates somewhere between the extremes of pencil whipping or bad work, and anal retentive to the point of suggesting or insisting on things that don't need to be done.... or not done yet. Edited December 9, 2020 by Immelman 1 Quote
Bartman Posted December 9, 2020 Report Posted December 9, 2020 (edited) Second best thing I ever did was become involved in the research and maintenance planning on 1TF. Best thing I ever did was start turning wrenches with supervision on 1TF. I am blessed to have the time, knowledge, and a willing IA. Edited December 9, 2020 by Bartman 3 2 Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted December 9, 2020 Report Posted December 9, 2020 Don Maxwell Aviation and SWTA are the only two shops in Texas I'd trust with a pre-buy, annual, and major service & repair. There are a few others to use in between if you need some work done. Sorry to hear of your troubles. Also, they'll be worth the trip from west Texas. Then catch SWA home from AUS if you leave with Southwest Texas Aviation or fly American home from GGG. Or find someone near you with a Mooney and swap rides to/from either shop if you have annual inspections due in successive months. 4 Quote
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