Shortest runway landing

[Shadrach]

Quote: jetdriven

I dunno, John, it looks like an incipient spin to me.  That looks like too much roll rate for ailerons only.  You can see he is holding about 1/2 to 1/3rd left aileron as they go vertical. Still, this is not a place you want to be in a Mooney.

[Shadrach]

Quote: thinwing

Actually i can see how a "short mooney landing "thread can evolve into a stall /spin discussion since we are talking about slowing down the heavier later model year Mooneys to land comfortably in less than 3000 ft.After reading all the reports of Bravo owners not feeling comfortable in short field operations..I can add my voice in agreement..A fully loaded tks bravo is a ground lover pure and simple and there is no amount of speed control that will change that for me.Having owned and flown stinsons,supercubs,m5 maules,huskies,Barons,Pitts s1s,the Bravo is a whole other animal and agree spinning one is akin to starting a Bar fight in a room full of gang members.Besides,if i really want to land short we need to talk about a whole nother catagory!!sinc kp couch

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Shadrach

 

I agree, see my last post...

Quote: Shadrach

Looks more like a stall, insipient spin that's converted into a spiral...it's badly rigged or he's demonstrating poor technique.

[Seth]

Shortest Runway:  W00 - Freeway Airport - I was based out of Freeway Airport W00 after I purchased my first Mooney, a 1967 M20F.  The runway is 2400 by 40 feet.  It gets better - one end has high trees, so you have to swoop in and the other has powerlines so your final is a 45 degree angle before lining up just before touchdown, which is just after the highway (perpendicular angle to the highway).  The taxiway goes up and down a hill on the east side of the runway.  If you can Taxi at Freeway, you can Taxi ANYWHERE.  The runway has a displaced threshold on one side.  That is the location of the MSC I use, so many Mooneys land there all the time.

This is where I learned to fly the 1967 Mooney M20F.  I feel comfortable landing there in the F model, and my first test flight in a Missile I did not buy was there.  Once I'm comfortable landing the new Missile there - I'll be happy.  I currently am based out of GAI with a 4200 by 75 foot runway - with clear approaches on both ends!  Knowing I can get in and out of Freeway boosts confidence. 

There is an 1800 x 30 field 2W2 that I pass over often - clearview - On a good day I may have to land there - They have a decent pilot shop from what I hear.

Take care,

-Seth

[Shadrach]

Quote: Seth

Shortest Runway:  W00 - Freeway Airport - I was based out of Freeway Airport W00 after I purchased my first Mooney, a 1967 M20F.  The runway is 2400 by 40 feet.  It gets better - one end has high trees, so you have to swoop in and the other has powerlines so your final is a 45 degree angle before lining up just before touchdown, which is just after the highway (perpendicular angle to the highway).  The taxiway goes up and down a hill on the east side of the runway.  If you can Taxi at Freeway, you can Taxi ANYWHERE.  The runway has a displaced threshold on one side.  That is the location of the MSC I use, so many Mooneys land there all the time.

This is where I learned to fly the 1967 Mooney M20F.  I feel comfortable landing there in the F model, and my first test flight in a Missile I did not buy was there.  Once I'm comfortable landing the new Missile there - I'll be happy.  I currently am based out of GAI with a 4200 by 75 foot runway - with clear approaches on both ends!  Knowing I can get in and out of Freeway boosts confidence. 

There is an 1800 x 30 field 2W2 that I pass over often - clearview - On a good day I may have to land there - They have a decent pilot shop from what I hear.

Take care,

-Seth

[johnggreen]

I go with Thinwing.  This thread has jumped to unintended issues.  He is also correct that to compare a Bravo and a C,D, or F is senseless and usually done by a M20C driver who has never flown a long body.  I think we should have a thread about stall behavior of Mooneys because, as this thread has shown, most pilots know little or nothing of the consequences.

Based on an article done by Flying Magazine some years ago, fatal accidents per hours flown in M20J's are twice that of Cessna 172's and 60% greater than Skylanes.  Mooneys are not friendly to being mishandled in stalls where a Cessna will in most cases refuse to spin even when the pilot is trying to create the condition.

What started this whole issue with the vidio of the "supposed" spin was the statement that I was not aware of anyone successfully spinning a Mooney (of any Model) since certification.  That is when the fake spin video was offered up.  I imagine that most opinions given here henceforth are from "pilots" (I use the term loosely) who have never spun an aircraft in their life.

I think it would be a valuable training asset for Mooney instructors/pilots if someone would spin a Mooney and document the behavior, and the altitude lost in a one, two and three turn spin.  I will put up $2,500 toward that "experiment" fully knowing that I will probably have no takers.  I am not at all sure that a Mooney will recover at all from a three turn spin; but I will pay to the survivors of the pilot who tries and laud his efforts should he succeed.

I won't be duped.  I will fly to anyplace within 500 miles of my home base to observe and the spin must be documented by other knowledgeable observers; I will bring along a couple myself.  The person taking my challenge will have to also put up $2,500 and should he fail to place the airplane in a full spin for three turns on the appointed day, FOR ANY REASON, he forfeits the money for my trouble.  There will be other reasonable conditions imposed such as it must be a stock C, D, F, J, or longbody Mooney, etc.  i'm too old and mean to be trifled with by "Peggy" (as on the credit card commercial), but I am dead serious.

Talk is cheap fellows, any takers?

[John Pleisse]

Quote: johnggreen

I go with Thinwing.  This thread has jumped to unintended issues.  He is also correct that to compare a Bravo and a C,D, or F is senseless.  I think we should have a thread about stall behavior of Mooneys because, as this thread has shown, most pilots know little or nothing of the consequences.

Based on an article done by Flying Magazine some years ago, fatal accidents in M20J's are twice that of Cessna 172's and 60% greater than Skylanes.  Mooneys are not friendly to being mishandled in stalls where a Cessna will in most cases refuse to spin even when the pilot is trying to create the condition.

What started this whole issue with the vidio of the "supposed" spin was that I was not aware of anyone successfully spinning a Mooney (of any Model) since certification.  I think it would be a valuable training asset for Mooney instructors/pilots if someone would spin a Mooney and document the altitude lost in a one, two and three turn spin.  I will put up $2,500 toward that "experiment" fully knowing that I will probably have no takers.  I am not at all sure that a Mooney will recover at all from a three turn spin; I will pay to the survivors of the pilot who tries.

I won't be duped.  I will fly to anyplace within 500 miles of my home base.  The spin must be documented by knowledgeable observers.  The person taking my challenge will have to also put up $2,500 and should he fail to place the airplane in a full spin for three turns on the appointed day, FOR ANY REASON, he forfeits the money for my trouble.  There will be other reasonable conditions imposed such as it must be a stock C, D, F, J, or longbody Mooney, etc.  i'm too old and mean to be trifled with by "Peggy" (as on the credit card commercial), but I am dead serious.

Talk is cheap fellows, any takers?

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Shadrach

2W2 has a great pilot shop for its size, though they carry almost no Mooney specific items. The owner told me that this is because of the number (or lack there of) that will fly in there.  If a Mooney self announces in the pattern, it will be watched to see if or how much tire smoke is emanating from under the wing on roll out (or skid out). Seriously, you do need to be on your "A Game" to make it comfy. I've made the first turn off (933ft) landing 14 and I've also used every bit of the 1840 ft on a day when I got a bit sloppy.  Runway 31 has >2% down hill grade and a displaced threshold of 280 ft leaving 1550ft for landing. Plenty of margin for my F if I'm on speed.  All in all, there's never been a Mooney crash there (probably a function of how few attempt it), but it has eaten many Cessnas and Pipers over the years.  I love going in there; it's fun and it's great place to buy fasteners, oil/filters and specialty items.  If you land well, the attendant will always tell you so. Gas is typically $.50 cheaper than it is at my base, which is 15 minutes away.

[Shadrach]

Quote: N4352H

2W2 has a great pilot shop for its size, though they carry almost no Mooney specific items. The owner told me that this is because of the number (or lack there of) that will fly in there.  If a Mooney self announces in the pattern, it will be watched to see if or how much tire smoke is emanating from under the wing on roll out (or skid out). Seriously, you do need to be on your "A Game" to make it comfy. I've made the first turn off (933ft) landing 14 and I've also used every bit of the 1840 ft on a day when I got a bit sloppy.  Runway 31 has >2% down hill grade and a displaced threshold of 280 ft leaving 1550ft for landing. Plenty of margin for my F if I'm on speed.  All in all, there's never been a Mooney crash there (probably a function of how few attempt it), but it has eaten many Cessnas and Pipers over the years.  I love going in there; it's fun and it's great place to buy fasteners, oil/filters and specialty items.  If you land well, the attendant will always tell you so. Gas is typically $.50 cheaper than it is at my base, which is 15 minutes away.

[N601RX]

Quote: johnggreen

I go with Thinwing.  This thread has jumped to unintended issues.  He is also correct that to compare a Bravo and a C,D, or F is senseless and usually done by a M20C driver who has never flown a long body.  I think we should have a thread about stall behavior of Mooneys because, as this thread has shown, most pilots know little or nothing of the consequences.

Based on an article done by Flying Magazine some years ago, fatal accidents per hours flown in M20J's are twice that of Cessna 172's and 60% greater than Skylanes.  Mooneys are not friendly to being mishandled in stalls where a Cessna will in most cases refuse to spin even when the pilot is trying to create the condition.

What started this whole issue with the vidio of the "supposed" spin was the statement that I was not aware of anyone successfully spinning a Mooney (of any Model) since certification.  That is when the fake spin video was offered up.  I imagine that most opinions given here henceforth are from "pilots" (I use the term loosely) who have never spun an aircraft in their life.

I think it would be a valuable training asset for Mooney instructors/pilots if someone would spin a Mooney and document the behavior, and the altitude lost in a one, two and three turn spin.  I will put up $2,500 toward that "experiment" fully knowing that I will probably have no takers.  I am not at all sure that a Mooney will recover at all from a three turn spin; but I will pay to the survivors of the pilot who tries and laud his efforts should he succeed.

I won't be duped.  I will fly to anyplace within 500 miles of my home base to observe and the spin must be documented by other knowledgeable observers; I will bring along a couple myself.  The person taking my challenge will have to also put up $2,500 and should he fail to place the airplane in a full spin for three turns on the appointed day, FOR ANY REASON, he forfeits the money for my trouble.  There will be other reasonable conditions imposed such as it must be a stock C, D, F, J, or longbody Mooney, etc.  i'm too old and mean to be trifled with by "Peggy" (as on the credit card commercial), but I am dead serious.

Talk is cheap fellows, any takers?

[sleepingsquirrel]

Quote: johnggreen

I go with Thinwing.  This thread has jumped to unintended issues.  He is also correct that to compare a Bravo and a C,D, or F is senseless and usually done by a M20C driver who has never flown a long body.  I think we should have a thread about stall behavior of Mooneys because, as this thread has shown, most pilots know little or nothing of the consequences.

Based on an article done by Flying Magazine some years ago, fatal accidents per hours flown in M20J's are twice that of Cessna 172's and 60% greater than Skylanes.  Mooneys are not friendly to being mishandled in stalls where a Cessna will in most cases refuse to spin even when the pilot is trying to create the condition.

What started this whole issue with the vidio of the "supposed" spin was the statement that I was not aware of anyone successfully spinning a Mooney (of any Model) since certification.  That is when the fake spin video was offered up.  I imagine that most opinions given here henceforth are from "pilots" (I use the term loosely) who have never spun an aircraft in their life.

I think it would be a valuable training asset for Mooney instructors/pilots if someone would spin a Mooney and document the behavior, and the altitude lost in a one, two and three turn spin.  I will put up $2,500 toward that "experiment" fully knowing that I will probably have no takers.  I am not at all sure that a Mooney will recover at all from a three turn spin; but I will pay to the survivors of the pilot who tries and laud his efforts should he succeed.

I won't be duped.  I will fly to anyplace within 500 miles of my home base to observe and the spin must be documented by other knowledgeable observers; I will bring along a couple myself.  The person taking my challenge will have to also put up $2,500 and should he fail to place the airplane in a full spin for three turns on the appointed day, FOR ANY REASON, he forfeits the money for my trouble.  There will be other reasonable conditions imposed such as it must be a stock C, D, F, J, or longbody Mooney, etc.  i'm too old and mean to be trifled with by "Peggy" (as on the credit card commercial), but I am dead serious.

Talk is cheap fellows, any takers?

[MooneyMitch]

Remember Dec. 3 at L52 y'all!  Toys For Tots.  Bring a new unwrapped toy with you please.  Oh yes, you can safely land your A - T model Mooney on our 2325 X 40 foot runway.

Bring it over the fence at 70 kts [perfectly safe].  If you wish, put it on the numbers and you'll be off at the second exit..........which is WAY before the end of our runway.  If you don't want to put it on the numbers, you can float at least 1/3 of the way down our runway [provided you're not doing 90 kts or more over the fence] and still get off at the end safely. 

Don't want you going off into our Lagoon.  Our rat fink developer would love it it f we did that.  More ammunition for him to still try and convince everyone that Oceano is a detriment to our community.

Have Mooney will travel...........and please, slow down a bit on final.  

[johnggreen]

601RX,

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.  That is some seriously valuable information.  From the description, I would conclude that the instructor really did encounter a spin, a legitimate spin, and from his analysis, I would also conclude that, as I suspected, a spin in a Mooney is nothing to be taken lightly.  I'm not sure that I understand exactly how many turns there were, apparently only one, with a loss of one thousand feet.  It would be hard to fathom that it was three turns as a Decathlon would lose more than 1,000' in three turns.  Now, if we could get all the other members of this blog to read and understand the significance of what this man experienced, we would have done a good turn.

As to 4352H, I don't understand your legal analysis.  Exactly who do you think would be liable for someone undertaking such a challenge.  Are you a member of the bar?

I will revert to my initial emphasis.  A Mooney does not spin, or correct from a spin, in the manner of a Cessna.  I would still like to see someone document the specifics of the spin behavior of a Mooney.  I would also, sadly , remind everyone that Joel lost his life in a Mooney stall/spin accident.

I just don't know why it is so difficult to direct people's attention to the obvious.

Again, thank you for this link.

As to the writer who wanted to know if I would go along for the ride.  Hell no!!!, but i'll pay another $500 if you will.

JG

[johnggreen]

To all:

I am now, seriously bored with this banter.  Going to other threads to cause trouble.

Oh, on a final note,  I am a member of the MS bar, my wife is a law professor, my son in law a member of the Maryland bar, my daughter the D.C. bar, one son the NC bar, and another third year at NYU law.

Still, any legal advice will be graciously received.

 

[carusoam]

John,

 

Let me summarize your thoughts...

 

(1) a cross-controlled stall could lead to a spin.

(2) a one turn spin in a mooney could lead to 1,000' loss of altitude.

(3) turning from base to final is the biggest risk of stall/spin.

(4) doing the math, it is impossible to recover from a spin in a mooney any where near final approach.

(5) having a high time mooney pilot / factory test pilot as a passenger won't help either.  He can't undo what has been started already.

(6) there is no sense practicing spins, they only happen near the ground, where recovery is impossible.

(7) recognize the stall and break the accident chain.

 

(8) you're a lawyer from MS, your family is made up of lawyers, and people that fly M20Cs aren't real pilots.

(9) you have $2,500 to give someone (or their next of kin) willing to risk their life while you watch.

 

I got it, why did it take so many long posts to get that out in the open?

 

Now that we have that put aside....what was the shortest runway that you flew a Mooney into?

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

[Lood]

Quote: carusoam

 

John,

 

Let me summarize your thoughts...

 

(1) a cross-controlled stall could lead to a spin.

(2) a one turn spin in a mooney could lead to 1,000' loss of altitude.

(3) turning from base to final is the biggest risk of stall/spin.

(4) doing the math, it is impossible to recover from a spin in a mooney any where near final approach.

(5) having a high time mooney pilot / factory test pilot as a passenger won't help either.  He can't undo what has been started already.

(6) there is no sense practicing spins, they only happen near the ground, where recovery is impossible.

(7) recognize the stall and break the accident chain.

 

(8) you're a lawyer from MS, your family is made up of lawyers, and people that fly M20Cs aren't real pilots.

(9) you have $2,500 to give someone (or their next of kin) willing to risk their life while you watch.

 

I got it, why did it take so many long posts to get that out in the open?

 

Now that we have that put aside....what was the shortest runway that you flew a Mooney into?

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

 

[jetdriven]

To all:

DO NOT rear-end this guy at a stoplight!

Quote: johnggreen

To all:

I am now, seriously bored with this banter.  Going to other threads to cause trouble.

Oh, on a final note,  I am a member of the MS bar, my wife is a law professor, my son in law a member of the Maryland bar, my daughter the D.C. bar, one son the NC bar, and another third year at NYU law.

Still, any legal advice will be graciously received.

 

[crxcte]

My home base (1K4) has a 1800'x60' rwy but you have to clear the trees on the approach end.  If I focus on my speed and hit the mark at the beginning of the runway I can be stopped less than 900' (half the runway) which is where the turn off is at.  There is a twin there that lands on the 1800' rwy.  He came in before me on a 95 degree day with DA over 4000'.  There is little to no ground effect on 95 degree day. 

[sleepingsquirrel]

Quote: johnggreen

To all:

I am now, seriously bored with this banter.  Going to other threads to cause trouble.

 

[fantom]

Quote: johnggreen

Still, any legal advice will be graciously received.

 

[MARZ]

Landed last night at AXH on 09 - made the first turn off at 1390 feet... 

[jetdriven]

That is impressive.

[MARZ]

Quote: jetdriven

That is impressive.

[carusoam]

Mike,

 

With that kind of efficiency you could have taken off and landed again on the remaining 3,500'+

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

[jetdriven]

Alright, I 'm heading over to AXH to see if this is possible with a 201. I think  Mike has either an tail hook or a drag chute.