Checking out M20Es

[MooneyStrike]

 
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Edited April 17, 2020 by MooneyStrike

[MooneyStrike]

Why would you want a different AP on a short body vs long body? I'm pretty set on the M20E though.

What exactly am I getting with HSI and WAAS functionality on AP?

And don't you mean AP = cruise control or autopilot (my car has autopilot and it's amazing)?

Speaking of air conditioning, isn't that something I'd want? I know I bake in DA40s on taxi.

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, MooneyStrike said:

Why would you want a different AP on a short body vs long body? I'm pretty set on the M20E though.

What exactly am I getting with HSI and WAAS functionality on AP?

And don't you mean AP = cruise control or autopilot (my car has autopilot and it's amazing)?

Speaking of air conditioning, isn't that something I'd want? I know I bake in DA40s on taxi.

You wouldn't necessarily want a different AP for short vs long body Mooneys. It's just that it's very unusual to find something like a KFC150 installed in a short body. About the best autopilot you'll find in a short body is the STEC 30/alt. In the long body, later model Mooneys, they installed later and more advanced autopilots. Also the KFC150 for example, makes use of electric trim which the M20C's and M20E's don't have.

The HSI and WAAS are not AP functions. A WAAS GPS can drive a good autopilot on much wider variety of instrument approaches than a GPS without WAAS. You'll want something to tell the autopilot where to take you and a GPS is the best solution for that. And a WAAS capable GPS is just much more capable than one that's not WAAS.

The HSI is an replacement for your DG that just makes instrument flying so much easier. It's a combination of DG and CDI. Once you start flying on instruments, you'll recognize how nice an HSI is to have and use.

Air conditioning is nice to have on the ground. But airplanes aren't meant to be on the ground. Air conditioning sucks performance and is very heavy. As soon as you climb to altitude you don't need it anymore, but you're still carrying the weight. You won't find any E's with air conditioning so don't worry about it.

 

[Ross Taylor]

Like Paul mentioned, on the AC issue, it's only nice on the ground.  I owned and flew a DA-40 as well, out of Deer Valley in Phoenix...and waiting in the conga line sucked sometimes...but once moving and up a bit, it gets nice.  For 95% of the time at altitude, having a heater is more important.   

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Ross Taylor said:

Like Paul mentioned, on the AC issue, it's only nice on the ground.  I owned and flew a DA-40 as well, out of Deer Valley in Phoenix...and waiting in the conga line sucked sometimes...but once moving and up a bit, it gets nice.  For 95% of the time at altitude, having a heater is more important.   

Yep, I've sweated out taxiing with temps in the upper 90s (higher on the runway), and had to run the cabin heat at about 1/3 at 9500 msl (OAT was in the upper 50s).

Even down South, it is markedly cooler starting around 6000 msl.  

[MooneyStrike]

cognize how nice an HSI is to have and use.

Will the HSI and WAAS drive the GPS on a STEC30 on a m20e then? So basically I should look for a STEC30 w/alt hold M20E with Monroy tanks and 201 windshield and cowling, and no belly/prop damage.

Edited April 18, 2020 by MooneyStrike

[Paul_Havelka]

One of the added benefits of a HSI is that it takes the place of 2 gauges which cleans up space in the panel.  That may not be important for some but when you start adding pretty gadgets to your panel the space gets ate up in a hurry.  I just installed a G5 HSI in my plane and I love it.  Now just to replace the AI as well and dump the vacuum system.

[moonlighting7]

So I found that plane... I paid 6k over asking to secure it before someone got there before me.  It had upgrades and was beautiful.  
 

Then..... I knew adsb was not complied with... Upon the completion of the ADSB and some adds I wanted (see my page) it cost me just shy of 50% purchase price due to a complete rewire behind the panel!!! WTF RIGHT? So much for pre-buy.  Just a caution that.... THAT ONE... Can still bite!  But it's super nice now flying a plane that things with when buttons are pushed and CBs (the main) don't pop for no apparent reason..? But now it's just great to fly!  100!hrs in it and still learning the fine tuning

[Skates97]

On 4/15/2020 at 8:37 AM, gsxrpilot said:

Everything is doable without an autopilot. Someone will be along shortly with tales of how they flew across the country without an autopilot. But even after you've made that flight to the place in NH a few times, and the thrill of owning an airplane has subsided just a touch (it never completely goes away), you'll wish you had an autopilot and will be back here trying to sell your Mooney and find one with an autopilot 

I'll be that guy 

We did fly CA to NC and back this summer, no autopilot and not even positive control. They didn't put it in the D's. Mine does fly nice when trimmed out. I will tell you Paul is right, when you are flying 3 hours on the same heading and the same altitude, you will wish you had an autopilot, I did. 

However, when I was buying my plane for the money I had it was a choice of buying a nice plane that had been flying regularly but did not have a auto pilot and also wasn't IFR, or a ratty who knows what at the bottom end of the price range for one with maybe a functioning auto pilot and IFR but old avionics. I chose the nice plane that was flying regularly and we have enjoyed many adventures. That was a little over three years and 350+ hours ago. 

Do I wish I had an auto pilot? Absolutely! Am I just as happy that I own a Mooney and can fly it? You bet! 

Everything is about trade offs, just figure out what is the most important. The thrill of owning a Mooney still hasn't worn off, and I won't be selling my plane for one that has an auto pilot. I will be putting in avionics this year to get set up and begin my IFR. Hopefully I will be able to put in a TruTrack auto pilot as well, but that remains to be seen. Regardless, I'll still be making my regular 3-500nm trips from CA to AZ and UT to visit family and enjoying all of it, even if it's hand flying. 

[Paul_Havelka]

So just a cookie for you to consider.  It is not available yet but I inquired with Dynon as to how the certification process for their autopilots on the Mooneys were coming and was told they had a few aircraft already in the process for the certification and that we should be seeing something late this year.  Obviously that has to be taken with a grain of salt a la TruTrak but they do already have certifications for cessnas and bonanzas and it's certified to fly coupled approaches.  I asked about gps failure and was told that the autopilot would still fly a course, alt, and such if the gps signal was lost.

[MooneyStrike]

I don't know what that means

[Urs_Wildermuth]

On 4/17/2020 at 4:12 PM, gsxrpilot said:

About the best autopilot you'll find in a short body is the STEC 30/alt. In the long body, later model Mooneys, they installed later and more advanced autopilots. Also the KFC150 for example, makes use of electric trim which the M20C's and M20E's don't have.

The only reason you would put an S-Tec AP into anything is the fact that there are no alternatives to retrofit at a proper price. I have the Stec 55x in my C model, because I wanted a proper pitch channel with Alt Hod, GS and VS (as I can't have LVL Change on any of those STC'd AP's I'd have to settle for that)  as well as a flight director. The STEC 30 and 50 have altitude hold but neither GS nor VS. They are the minimum for IFR as far as I am concerned.

As for quality however, the S-Tecs are not really the bees knees. Personally I am disappointed in the roll channel response of the S-Tec vs a King AP. Holding GPSS sort of works but holding a localizer in crosswind is totally unsatisfactory, nor do intercepts work properly. The FD does indicate all right, but the AP will sway left to right in the slightest of cross winds when trying to hold a track or loc that it is not really of much worth. In my experience with KFC 150 and 200 AP's, they are a different league. It's a big pitty that neither the DFC90 nor the digital Stec are STC'd for the Mooneys. I hear the DFC90 is really good and it also has level change, which in my book is what any AP should have.

[ArtVandelay]

The only reason you would put an S-Tec AP into anything is the fact that there are no alternatives to retrofit at a proper price. I have the Stec 55x in my C model, because I wanted a proper pitch channel with Alt Hod, GS and VS (as I can't have LVL Change on any of those STC'd AP's I'd have to settle for that)  as well as a flight director. The STEC 30 and 50 have altitude hold but neither GS nor VS. They are the minimum for IFR as far as I am concerned.
As for quality however, the S-Tecs are not really the bees knees. Personally I am disappointed in the roll channel response of the S-Tec vs a King AP. Holding GPSS sort of works but holding a localizer in crosswind is totally unsatisfactory, nor do intercepts work properly. The FD does indicate all right, but the AP will sway left to right in the slightest of cross winds when trying to hold a track or loc that it is not really of much worth. In my experience with KFC 150 and 200 AP's, they are a different league. It's a big pitty that neither the DFC90 nor the digital Stec are STC'd for the Mooneys. I hear the DFC90 is really good and it also has level change, which in my book is what any AP should have.

Can you adjust the response of the STec, by switching in/out of approach mode?

[Brian E.]

@MooneyStrikeYour timing is impeccable.  Here's one to add to your list for consideration...

 

 

[carusoam]

Strike,

If you are serious... bob’s plane just hit the market...

A forever-plane in perfect condition...

It comes as a surprise... so few know about it’s availability until today...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyStrike]

110k for an M20E sounds like quite a stretch in budget. I'm not sure how much more airplane I'm getting on $110k vs 75-80, and how much more you're getting on a 75-80 over a 65-70 which seems to be the sweet spot. As I understand, for 110 you can get a M20J that's faster and newer, or a Bonanza that's more all around luxurious and load hauler, or an 'older' new plane like a cirrus SR20, or something like an RV that just outperforms an M20e or j in speed.

One issue I think I see is that a $60k M20E and a $110 M20E are still gonna have the same $10-15k per year costs outside purchase price. I also see the advanced avionics and wonder at what point do I have more than I need? I mean would I really care if my AP didn't track 100% correctly and it took me another 5 minutes of adjustment on a long flight?

 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2380903&s-type=aircraft

$68k

3k/400 hr

This plane has some nice avionics just like the $110k plane - stec50, big moving map, all speed mods.There's a prop strike (it says minor) but that was in 2004 which seems long enough ago.

 

 

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, MooneyStrike said:

This plane has some nice avionics just like the $110k plane - stec50, big moving map, all speed mods.There's a prop strike (it says minor) but that was in 2004 which seems long enough ago.

 

The plane you referenced had an overhaul in 2004 and 500 hrs since then. The prop strike was 2 years and 45 hrs ago. Not a deal breaker IMO but sometimes it’s hard to read between the lines. 
 

The 110k Cirrus will probably need $60k worth of maintenance in the next couple of years (repack on a gen one, and possibly a reman). 

[Paul_Havelka]

The benefit of Bob's 110k E is that no cost has been spared during maintenance and it really needs NOTHING.  Although you should send anything you're serious about for a prebuy I would imagine that with Bob's aircraft that a prebuy is just a formality and the mooniacs around here all know of Bob and the aircraft which in and of itself is a huge bonus.  For whatever reason he is selling, some thought they'd never see the day, I have no doubt that Bob would continue to assist whomever bought it.

[Marauder]

4 hours ago, MooneyStrike said:

110k for an M20E sounds like quite a stretch in budget. I'm not sure how much more airplane I'm getting on $110k vs 75-80, and how much more you're getting on a 75-80 over a 65-70 which seems to be the sweet spot. As I understand, for 110 you can get a M20J that's faster and newer, or a Bonanza that's more all around luxurious and load hauler, or an 'older' new plane like a cirrus SR20, or something like an RV that just outperforms an M20e or j in speed.

One issue I think I see is that a $60k M20E and a $110 M20E are still gonna have the same $10-15k per year costs outside purchase price. I also see the advanced avionics and wonder at what point do I have more than I need? I mean would I really care if my AP didn't track 100% correctly and it took me another 5 minutes of adjustment on a long flight?

 

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2380903&s-type=aircraft

$68k

3k/400 hr

This plane has some nice avionics just like the $110k plane - stec50, big moving map, all speed mods.There's a prop strike (it says minor) but that was in 2004 which seems long enough ago.

 

 

I am one of those crazy people like Bob who has upgraded a vintage Mooney to a modern state. To answer your question, what you are getting other than a WELL maintained plane is a plane that has a couple more things going for it. Specifically, he has several things in the plane that add value that you may not be considering. Here are a few I know about:

1) Bob has a 930 in the plane. That unit will run you around $10k installed.

2) Bob has an Aspen PFD (~$10k installed).

3) Bob has a fresh paint job (~$14k). Take a look at the nose strut on the plane you posted and then look at Bob's.

4) Bob has a modern audio panel (~$4k installed).

5) Bob has a fresher interior (~$5k to $10k difference depending on how far you want to upgrade the plane you posted). Take a close look at the seats. That's $4k to $5k to have a decent avionics shop reupholster them.

Not taking anything away from the Mooney you posted. I think it is probably priced about right but it is a stage behind Bob's in terms of modernization. The key areas to look at beyond the avionics are the health of the engine and the airframe itself.

I'm not just a vintage Mooney owner, I am a preserver as well. There is a lot to be said about the pain and suffering to modernize a plane. Bob has endured that and it really bothers me to see him selling at this time.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I can relate to shopping for an E but without the budget to spend $110K on one. I only had a budget of $50K when I was shopping and so ended up with a C because I couldn't find a descent E for that price. So if you don't have the $110K to spend, they you're not buying Bob's E.

But... in the long run, Bob's E will be a much better investment than any other one you might buy. Any vintage Mooney you buy, you will either spend to upgrade it, maybe over time. Or you won't. If you spend to do the upgrades, it will cost a lot more to do them yourself, then to buy a plane where they've already been done. If you don't upgrade but just hold it and fly it, you can expect to see the value drop significantly over time. 

We do see Mooneys occasionally that have been over done, or done poorly. For example a $20K paint job but no autopilot or lots of glass, but no engine monitor. This plane has been done right. It has everything you'd want but nothing extra.

@Marauder's F is another good example of a upgrades done right. And when it's for sale, you can expect it to be the most expensive F on the market. And it will still be the best investment you can make in an F.

But then if you're thinking you might prefer a Bonanza or a Cirrus... we'd all probably prefer you stayed away from Bob's E. 

[KLRDMD]

On 4/17/2020 at 7:12 AM, gsxrpilot said:

Air conditioning is nice to have on the ground. But airplanes aren't meant to be on the ground. Air conditioning sucks performance and is very heavy. As soon as you climb to altitude you don't need it anymore, but you're still carrying the weight. You won't find any E's with air conditioning so don't worry about it.

Air conditioning is nice to have in flight too, especially for shorter flights that it doesn't make sense to go higher. And even if you do go higher you still need to descend to land. If it is 45ºC on the ground, which happens quite a bit where I live, at 2º/1000 ft, it will be 80ºF at 10,000 AGL which is 13,000 MSL where I live. I regularly make a flight that takes me 22-23 minutes (versus 2 hours driving) but requires that I go to 7,500 ft there and 8,500 ft home to get over a mountain. It is still 93ºF at my cruise altitude, plus the climb and descent that are even hotter.

The Arctic Air Real (R-134a) Air conditioning unit that I have takes 10 minutes to install or remove and weighs 42 lb. That weight doesn't bother me with 1100+ lb useful load and it is in the baggage area which moves my CG back a bit (again, not an issue with my S35 Bonanza - don't listen to those that don't know and tell you all Bonanzas load out the rear of the CG envelope) which makes it a bit faster. I leave the A/C in all year long and will use it at least once every month as even in the winter it can get warm here. It hit 100ºF yesterday.

And the Arctic Air Real Air conditioning unit is fully electric so it doesn't affect airplane performance at all.

Since the man did mention Bonanzas and he wants Air Conditioning, this may be an option for him.

[Immelman]

Plenty of good airplanes have made gear up landings. If repaired properly there is no reason to exclude them from your search. Good luck!

 

 

[drapo]

I have a 65 Super 21 that I bought for around $50k ten years ago. It was in nice condition, few things were original others needed taken care of and engine was at 1200SNEW in 40yrs...

It was my retirement plane, so I was planning on spending some money getting it «modern», that included new donuts on all gears, alternator/starter/battery, a WAAS GPS, engine instruments, new panel layout, few things here and there that ended up costing around $30k or so. Then there was the engine... another $30k and lo and behold, had to take care of some corrosion issue for $20K. My M20E is not even close to what Bob's is, no modern autopilot (Yet ) or audio panel, no Aspen etc... but stil, I have put more money in mine than Bob is asking for his, so for someone shopping for a forever plane, that is a bargain! 

Sorry you have to sell Bob, take care of yourself!

[carusoam]

The difference between the known... and the unknown... and the unknown unknowns...

Bob’s plane is extremely well known... inside and out...

When comparing the newer bigger planes at lower prices.... this is a huge difference in quality...

Bob’s plane isn’t overpriced per se.... try to bring an ordinary J up to this level of niceties... then you will be saying something to the effect that the nice E is a bargain compared to the nice J...

Forever-planes are expensive...

Incredibly expensive to build, a bargain when you find one already built that hits the market... waiting for something to hit the market.... is a tough game to play.

Don’t feel bad if the color doesn’t meet your needs... or a really nice forever-plane is out of your budget range...

Most Mooneys in the near perfect range cost a few hundred AMUs.... 700amu for the best of the best...

Bob’s E is looking more like a bargain each time I look at it.  

It was in a contest one year for best OH’d plane in its category.... not very long ago.

The next owner is going to be proud of this ship... right from the beginning...
 

Often people will mention that they want to get to know the owner... this helps understand what he is selling... how he took care of it... how he ran it...   Bob recently was awarded a really cool honor from the FAA... 50 years of being a fine upstanding young pilot... 

Find Bob’s pirep around here... he flew across the country and back with a young family member.... a grand nephew?

This plane will build memories... it has a proven track record of doing that already...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy... I only know Bob from his informative posts on MS...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyStrike]

Just found out my local airport's hangar fee is $600/mo and a 2 year wait. sheesh

Edited April 30, 2020 by MooneyStrike