MooneyStrike Posted April 13, 2020 Report Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) Hey, I've begun taking a look at M20s to purchase, I'm a PPL that started IFR training, about 150hrs, and been looking for a few months now and I'm sure I'm still a good half year at least before I am knowledgeable enough to make a decision, but wanted to get better at doing this. Recently a bunch of M20Es have come up on the market and I'm sure many more will begin to be listed with the current economic forecast and with summer coming around ie selling season. I was hoping to get more info at some airshows but they are all cancelled. Basically it seems like there are some good M20Es priced around 70k for what I want (autopilot, IFR capable, GPS so I presume at least a 430w, as well as decent hours, 2k-5k airframe and under 1k engine, and no belly ups or prop strikes and always hangared. Just a month ago there were barely any M20C/E on the market and they were all priced 70k+ for less than perfect. https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2380228&s-type=aircraft 1965 Mooney M20E Super 21, 2728 TTAF, TSMOH 333. All New Firewall Forward. One Piece Windshield, O&N Bladders. Dual 430's, 1 WAAS Coupled w/Alt Hold. ADSB Out. Great Paint, Glass, Seats And Carpet. Oversized nose gear. $70k One Piece windshield, I presume that means the 201 m20j windshield mod that makes it faster? And O&N Bladders means won't have to worry about fuel leaking. I do not know what an oversized nose gear is and couldn't find info on it. There's some more info on the page, and it notes a bird strike in 88 on the wing that I imagine means nothing. ADSB out but no in I see. https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1556136-1964-Mooney-M20E-REDUCED.html $56k (price reduced) 430W, STEC 50, new bladder tanks. 6000hours airframe is high but engine is 600. Always hangared. This seems like a great choice tbh, especially for the price. https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/192718969/1966-mooney-m20e-super-21 Has ADS-B out but doesn't mention In, Says Brittain Accutrac needs work (I emailed them, is this the Positive Control system that is just 2 wing leveler, 1 axis?). 3700/600hours is nice $67k https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/192637317/1966-mooney-m20e-super-21 $75k, ADS-B in and out, GTN 650 I assume is a step up touchscreen of the 430W. I try to find info on the Brittain B-6 autopilot but can't find any videos on it or anything. Seems like a great plane, sealed tanks, but the color scheme does leave a bit to be desired. https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1565242-65-M20-E-Super-21-Beautiful.html $46k Beautiful paint scheme (besides those white with red & blue ones), $46k. PCS inop 2600TT might mean it just sat around and 1600hour engine is a bit high (it would be good if the engine hours are recent though I presume), I don't think this avionics or autopilot but the price and paint I had to list it. Thanks. I don't think I'm ready yet but I want to be. If I was ready, I'd probably shoot an offer of under 10 listed for of the first 2 I listed. There's a ton of avionics equipment like the radios and transponders they all have listed and I'm doing my research on them but I don't know how critical it is to know that stuff. I know there are preferences for johnson bar and electric flaps or not but I'm just going to try to take a ride up in a mooney m20e locally one day. Edited April 13, 2020 by MooneyStrike Quote
Hank Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 Welcome and enjoy the hunt! Search here for Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI) for major items to look for. Vintage Mooneys after ~1964/65 have the PC system, a pretty decent wing leveler. The Brittain Accutrac engages the PC to fly a heading set on the DG by a bug. Brittain AccuFlight will follow a gps-programmed flight plan / approach. None of these involve altitude. I have both, and actively manage my altitude while the Brittain handles heading or flight path. Just tweak the heading bug as needed to account for wind and maintain your desired track. Forget about altitude and you can fly a beautiful approach pattern at your cruising altitude . . . . The Brittain B6 does altitude. Not having it, I can't tell you much about how it works, but it does not require electric trim. All of the Brittain units run on vacuum, and are pretty simple to maintain and repair when necessary. The company has been purchased and is in paperwork purgatory getting everything set up with the new owners. (No, the FAA is no kinder to new corporate owners than they are to pilots . . .) But they should soon be back to making kits and overhauling things in-house again. Quote
carusoam Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 Bust out the old excel machine... start building spreadsheets... Each plane gets a new column.... +1 PPI +1 TT Many things show up all the time... either standard or popular replacements... Then find the Mooney list detailing all the changes from year to year... If you take six months to find your plane... you naturally become a qualified Mooney historian before your TT is complete... No real magic to it, just crunching numbers in your head when able... Bonus points for... AP holds a heading or follows a course or holds altitude.... audio panel GPS WAAS HSI ADSB-out engine monitor carb heat temp for M20C points removed from any orphaned analog radio with mechanical dials... or loran... double negative points for anything marked Narco... Expect nice planes to move quickly... dogs take extra time... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 As @carusoam suggested, I'd make up a spreadsheet with a column for each of those five airplanes. List each of the features on a row so that you can compare the five planes side by side. I would also list the features in order based on importance or value/cost. For example adding an engine monitor would be $2000 to $5000 whereas adding an autopilot is $15K to $25K. Therefore all other things being equal the airplane with the autopilot but no engine monitor is quite a bit more valuable than the airplane with the engine monitor but no autopilot. I like to list the asking price first then year model, followed by hours since overhaul. Also, if you'd like to talk through these or any other Mooneys, send me a PM with contact details. I'm happy to talk through the process with you and what the market looks like at the moment. 2 Quote
Ross Taylor Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 Hi and welcome! I certainly don't want to sound like I am second-guessing your parameters, because you've got a great list. But I would throw out a couple options to expand the offerings. We actually bought our 1966 E shortly after a prop strike...the result of a gear failure. It's a great airplane and the prop strike got us a recently installed factory zero-time engine with a new propeller (with no eddy current AD). Another option is to consider getting a "discounted" aircraft with closer to 2,000 hours on the engine. If the engine checks out well, you might get another 1,000 hours out of it for essentially free. Assuming the price reflects the high-time engine. I'll be following along on your search! Ross 2 Quote
Mark942 Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 I bought an "E" 3 years ago, having never sat in a Mooney in my life. I had owned two airplanes earlier in my life (a Cherokee 140 and then a Beech Sundowner). The Mooney is nothing like these planes. I feel like I am "One with with my Mooney" not just a passenger in the plane. I bought it as a Project plane. I have spent twice as much on it, as I did to buy it. I love working on it, and it is my retirement project. I was a workaholic and my wife insisted that I have something to focus on when I actually retired. Even though it is an expensive "Hobby", it is also so interesting to learn everything I can about the actual plane, as well as flying it. So, in my humble opinion, you have picked a wonderful airplane. It flies fast, and is so solid, but realize that E's are vintage airplanes that will take a lot of TLC to maintain. I tell people that with the "E" that I have a wonderful 2-place airplane with all the luggage space you could dream of, and it sips fuel like a Cessna 150 and skims along at 150 MPH all day long. I wish you all the best in your search, -mark 3 Quote
Paul_Havelka Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 I know of a 1964 E model that the guy is asking 36k for it. It actually looks to be in pretty good shape. The old man bought it and had a stroke a couple months later and lost his medical. It's basic IFR with (2) kx155 w/GS but TTAF is 4832 and there's approximately 850smoh. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 See if this is the plane Creek is referring to... One of the things that is hard to get a feel for when it is just an ad in the paper... is who the owner was... This one has a bit of history of the owner... Best regards, -a- Quote
Nukemzzz Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 Some replies to your specific questions: -1 piece windshield isn’t necessarily the same thing as the 201 mod. Just gets rid of the bar in the middle of the screen. Mine is 1 pc. -ADSB In is a $200 add on box for any system. Not something to think on. -I don’t think you’ll find one without a prop strike or gear up landing that has also always been hangared. Settle for 1 of the 3 -Brittan is no longer in business or active. you can only get used parts now and they are getting more and more rare I’m hoping to maybe fix mine one day, but I have low confidence that it’s worthwhile to try...if I fix one old part, can I get a replacement for the next one that fails? These systems have a finite viable life now. Just my opinions after going through my new to me M20E and learning some things. Quote
carusoam Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 Brittain is technically still alive look for Cecilia... -a- Quote
Bob_Belville Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 @MooneyStrike , you should contact Jimmy Garrison @ All American near San Antonio. https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm He has an inventory of Mooneys plus he brokers more. And he recently partnered with Paul Maxwell of Don Maxwell Aviation. http://donmaxwell.com/ Get Jimmy's valuation worksheet. He puts a value on the bladders, one piece windshield, airframe and engine hours... and much more. Here's the model history Anthony referred to: http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm FWIW, IMNSHO, you're targeting the perfect Mooney. My '66E cruises at 145 ktas on 8 g/h. And that ought to be doable by most 50 year old Es. 3 Quote
carusoam Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 Way to go Bob! Thanks for filling in so many details. Go MS! Best regards, -a- Quote
Brian E. Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 @MooneyStrikeAs noted JImmy at All American is awesome. But don't forget to look in the MS for sale section. There's a number of advantages of buying from the forum and keeping a bird in the family. Be sure to look at F models, here's a great, well-cared for one: A nice looking C with possibly a Trophy conversion And some offerings from JImmy at All American. Be sure to get his pricing guide and get on his pre-sale list. And finally be sure you get some feedback on your purchases or you may get over your head 1 Quote
atrosa Posted April 14, 2020 Report Posted April 14, 2020 Just curious, with a 65K budget, why are you not looking at some J models? I have seen a few of them for about the 65K amount, Quote
MooneyStrike Posted April 15, 2020 Author Report Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) On 4/13/2020 at 9:04 PM, Hank said: Welcome and enjoy the hunt! Search here for Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI) for major items to look for. Vintage Mooneys after ~1964/65 have the PC system, a pretty decent wing leveler. The Brittain Accutrac engages the PC to fly a heading set on the DG by a bug. Brittain AccuFlight will follow a gps-programmed flight plan / approach. None of these involve altitude. I have both, and actively manage my altitude while the Brittain handles heading or flight path. Just tweak the heading bug as needed to account for wind and maintain your desired track. Forget about altitude and you can fly a beautiful approach pattern at your cruising altitude . . . . The Brittain B6 does altitude. Not having it, I can't tell you much about how it works, but it does not require electric trim. All of the Brittain units run on vacuum, and are pretty simple to maintain and repair when necessary. The company has been purchased and is in paperwork purgatory getting everything set up with the new owners. (No, the FAA is no kinder to new corporate owners than they are to pilots . . .) But they should soon be back to making kits and overhauling things in-house again. I would love to get some experience or knowledge on these systems, but youtube videos on their operation seems limited. I don't know how much autopilot I would need, I mean if I drift off a few degrees you just correct, but I would definitely like altitude hold. It's hard for someone in my position to really know which of these systems I'd be most happy with. 'll try to make a spreadsheet of everything I find now and set it up. 23 hours ago, Ross Taylor said: Hi and welcome! I certainly don't want to sound like I am second-guessing your parameters, because you've got a great list. But I would throw out a couple options to expand the offerings. We actually bought our 1966 E shortly after a prop strike...the result of a gear failure. It's a great airplane and the prop strike got us a recently installed factory zero-time engine with a new propeller (with no eddy current AD). Another option is to consider getting a "discounted" aircraft with closer to 2,000 hours on the engine. If the engine checks out well, you might get another 1,000 hours out of it for essentially free. Assuming the price reflects the high-time engine. I'll be following along on your search! Ross I dont think I'm knowledgeable enough to be able to buy something like this and chance it out. I'd really be kicking myself if I got a plane and it ended up having issues because of it's damge history. I don't mind paying a bit more for a plane that won't have issues. 2 hours ago, atrosa said: Just curious, with a 65K budget, why are you not looking at some J models? I have seen a few of them for about the 65K amount, I dunno, I was under the impression it's a $100k+ plane. Can I get a decent J for 70 or less with what I want? Edited April 15, 2020 by MooneyStrike Quote
gsxrpilot Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 2 hours ago, atrosa said: Just curious, with a 65K budget, why are you not looking at some J models? I have seen a few of them for about the 65K amount, You would much rather fly the nicest, best equipped, best maintained, M20C in the country than the cheapest, all original, out of annual, hangar Queen M20J. Even if they were the same money. When I was buying my first Mooney. I wanted an M20E. But my $50K budget would buy a low end M20E or a top of the line M20C. The best decision I ever made was buying the M20C. With airplanes of these vintages, condition, maintenance, regular flying, and updated avionics makes MUCH more of a difference than model. 3 Quote
gsxrpilot Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 Just now, MooneyStrike said: I'm not sure I've seen any Js under 75, but I'd rather get a high end of what I want than a low end of a step up. That is smart thinking! 1 Quote
MikeOH Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 45 minutes ago, MooneyStrike said: I dunno, I was under the impression it's a $100k+ plane. Can I get a decent J for 70 or less with what I want? IMHO, Hell no! Quote
carusoam Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 following the economy... Prior to 2008... nice low content Js were just over 100amu... fully loaded or nice condition were up around 140amu. post 2009 a bottom rung J was around 50amu... Prior to 2020... The bottom rung Moved up... in price... To own a bottom rung airplane takes skill or money... or lots of patience and time to learn... essentially a lot of drive to get it done... luck helps. PP thoughts only... I started on the bottom rung... I got lucky. Best regards, -a- Quote
MooneyStrike Posted April 15, 2020 Author Report Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) Something I've learned with cars too. When it's your baby you want it decked out. A perfect M20C could be a compromise for me but I think I have the budget to stretch for a perfect M20E, which is just a C with a little more speed. The J also just doesn't fit my mission, I almost never fly with a 3rd passenger. But, I've flown a few times with 3-4 people, so that's enough to rule out some of those experimentals and LSAs that look super attractive and new and fancy that don't have back seats. I'm okay if my 3-4 passengers are crammed and uncomfortable. 2 of the mooneys I listed are from american. They seem listed $5k higher than I think they should be (again, I'm totally new to this, I'm here to train this sense), and they're great, that's why I listed them. One has an outdated color and other has a bad shape AP. Edited April 15, 2020 by MooneyStrike Quote
Rusty Pilot Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 12:29 AM, Bob_Belville said: @MooneyStrike , you should contact Jimmy Garrison @ All American near San Antonio. https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm He has an inventory of Mooneys plus he brokers more. And he recently partnered with Paul Maxwell of Don Maxwell Aviation. http://donmaxwell.com/ Get Jimmy's valuation worksheet. He puts a value on the bladders, one piece windshield, airframe and engine hours... and much more. Here's the model history Anthony referred to: http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm FWIW, IMNSHO, you're targeting the perfect Mooney. My '66E cruises at 145 ktas on 8 g/h. And that ought to be doable by most 50 year old Es. Bob, I love your cowl. Is that an available speed mod with STC or custom? Quote
Jerry 5TJ Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 8 hours ago, MooneyStrike said: I'd really be kicking myself if I got a plane and it ended up having issues because of it's damge history These planes are half a century old. Most of their logs entries are terse, handwritten and incomplete. NDH means, to me, only that no damage was logged. Current condition is the most important part of your evaluation of a plane and it is hard to fit into a spreadsheet. I have owned both an E and a C model. I feel they are about equal in real-world performance. If you find an excellent airplane of either model get it under contract without delay and do a thorough inspection. Good hunting. 2 Quote
atrosa Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 here is one that looks nice on paper: 1978 MOONEY M20J • $65,000 • PRICE REDUCED • Nice M20J - airframe 5500+ TT 1200+ smoh, all compressions 77 or better at annual, 1000+ spoh, 4 probe EGT and CHT, nice paint, recent leather, clear glass, new main gear donuts, electric trim, speed brakes, good tires, original King panel, autopilot inoperable but I have an STEC 30 that will go with sale, 4 place intercom, ADS-B installed, Rosen visors, all logs since new including yellow tags and receipts, annual due 11/20. $65K or reasonable offer. Please no Brokers, Dealers, tire kickers, or traders. This is a turnkey 201 buy and fly everything but AP works! Hangared at KBWC in Brawley CA • Contact Joel Thornburg , Owner - located Yuma, AZ United States • Telephone: 760.562.9301 • Posted March 27, 2020 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchist • Report This Ad • View Larger Images Quote
Bob_Belville Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Rusty Pilot said: Bob, I love your cowl. Is that an available speed mod with STC or custom? @Sabremechis working on his "type II" version. He intends to offer it to J and older models with a STC. (Mine is one of 4 cowls, David's personal C, my E, an F, and a G, done with field approved 337s.) Quote
atrosa Posted April 15, 2020 Report Posted April 15, 2020 On the 78 J listed for 65 obo, offer 60 and get a Thorough Prebuy. Quote
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