David Mazer Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 Quote: Toflyordie Fella's take a look at this and let me know you oppinions. http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=133263&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&dealerid= Quote
Toflyordie Posted September 10, 2011 Author Report Posted September 10, 2011 Mazer, Your input is greatly appreciated! Ok, so let's say you're me; what would you look for? For someone who works for Uncle Sam (enlisted), shoe string budget... Looking back, the F doesn't deviate too far from the J. Except for the range...wow, that sucks. I suppose once you add the kiddos, wife, luggage...that's going to deminish anyway. I guess I need to go through a class or something titled "An idiots guide to buying an airplane". Being VFR, I know what my basics are. King radios have always been around and they're very proud of their product, the price proves that. WAAS can you expound upon this, I haven't flown since December '03. After Sept 11, our tempo (military) picked up. Deployment, deployment oh, yeah....deployment! I've read a few threads to "upgrade don'ts". It seems that most on here say get what you want on your first buy, don't upgrade as you go along. You'll end up paying more in the long run..., How true is that? Quote
scottfromiowa Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 Regarding upgrades, it's as true as your wife being "smoking hot". Buy them already done. Let the previous owner eat the 50% or more value vs. cost. Quote
scottfromiowa Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 Keep building time and wait to buy the J with correct Garmin 430 and functioning auto-pilot. The $25 grand will be well spent. Quote
orangemtl Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 Let me display my ignorance for a moment, since I'm a novice, and have only owned a single plane (Mooney). The anwer honsetly is: it depends. If you purely want to fly because you enjoy being in the air, and have only short hops in mind, a Light Sport aircraft is a valid consideration. Also, if money is not an inifinite resource for you (like all of us), the 4-7gph consumption of LSAs has appeal. Two close friends are looking to enter/reenter aviation. They are looking variously at the Luscombe LSA; Aviat Husky; and a few of the new Cub variants (Legend, Cubcrafters). I must admit, they are very appealing WITHIN THEIR LIMITS. The Husky is great, if you plan on camping, or hitting the impossible short grass fields, or the like (I admit that the Acclaim with all of its qualities will remain an asphalt princess, and never see a short grass field). If 'retro' appeals to you, there's the Ercoupe (yes, I know: slow as dirt, no pedals, etc.). While I'm a short time owner, I've been shopping for thirty years. There's no single perfect plane just like there's no single perfect spouse--except for the one that's perfect for YOU. All that said: I love my Mooney. Beautiful; fast; just demanding enough to expect you to pay attention and constantly work on your technique, which to my way of thinking makes you a better pilot; it's also nice to have at least one person, every time you land somewhere, say "That your Mooney? Boy, those are fast planes...", or the like. Whatever you choose, enjoy it! Quote
Toflyordie Posted September 10, 2011 Author Report Posted September 10, 2011 Orange, It's all good to share your oppinion, I don't consider your oppinion ignorance. I've looked into LSA, again...not deep into them. I don't see a four place LSA that will fit my needs/wants...if that makes any sense. To Quote you: "All that said: I love my Mooney. Beautiful; fast; just demanding enough to expect you to pay attention and constantly work on your technique, which to my way of thinking makes you a better pilot; it's also nice to have at least one person, every time you land somewhere, say "That your Mooney? Boy, those are fast planes...", or the like. Whatever you choose, enjoy it!" The Bold print could be applied to the relationship with my wife and I...LMAO! All kidding aside, this forum is a research tool. Also, this forum has (MHO) great, friendly people. Most would take a newb, with no knowledge, like me and punch'm to the curb! I've felt a warm welcome since posting all my blank posts cause I was so "NEW" that I wasn't using Fire Fox versus MS explorer. Where there's a will, there's always a way! The budget is based on current job standings/retirement earnings. As I retire 5 yrs from now, at the young age of 39, I have a few connections out in the civilian world willing to take in an Air Force veteran. So the budget may increase depending on the "salary to be"... I'm just really enjoying all the conversations, opinions, information and personal stories that everyone is sharing! Keep'em coming. Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 Quote: Toflyordie Fella's take a look at this and let me know you oppinions. http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=133263&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&dealerid= Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 10, 2011 Report Posted September 10, 2011 I posted my first response without realizing there was a second page to read... duh. Not sure what you're seeing on range with an F vs. a J. They will be very similar, and since most Lycoming IO-360s will fly lean of peak (LOP) it is possible to get bladder-busting range with either plane, and a safe bet you'll be able to make all 4 folks wet their pants before you run out of fuel! Because of the exceptional efficiency of any Mooney, you can trade fuel for payload and take a family with bags and easily fly a few hundred miles in a couple of hours with fuel to spare. My longest flight to date has been 900 NM (solo) and I landed with 15 gallons left, or another 2 hours at the power setting I was using. I wouldn't inflict such a long flight on a passenger, but it gives you an idea of what our planes can do. I've also done 4-up on a weekend trip with 4 adults + bags (2 guys/2 girls) a few times on trips of up to 500 miles. We have a lot of flexibility! Regarding upgrading vs. buying "more" up front... upgrades are lucky to add 50% of the cost to the value of a plane, so it is best to buy the best condition and best-equipped plane that you can. Keep in mind that most buyers these days will demand a 430W or similar at a minimum, so if you buy a plane without one, either plan to add one (and enjoy the extra utility) or be prepared to wait a long time and/or take a bath when you sell down the road. If you're waiting to purchase until after retirement, then consider getting a partner once you figure out where you'll land if you think you'll be able to stay put for a while. I'd rather "share" a much better Mooney than have a dog all to myself. Quote
Toflyordie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Posted September 11, 2011 Scott, Thanks for your input and advice. Partnership is not out of the equation. The right partner is must! I'm sure a diamond in the rough will show its head. I'm quickly learning that I'm swimming in the "deep end". V/r, Ben Quote
Toflyordie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Posted September 11, 2011 The Hornet driver named George that posted "Prospective Vintage Mooney buyers" thread opened my eyes. Lot's of info there. Thanks George! Hope yall had a great weekend! Quote
jax88 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Posted September 11, 2011 For what it's worth . . . I purchased a 75 F in the spring of 2010. Since then I have put 100 or so VFR hours on the aircraft. Just the co-pilot and I with the exception of a couple of local flights with my teenage daughter. Most of the hours have been San Antonio to Houston, Las Vegas, New Orleans, or to the Texas Hill Country for the $100 BBQ. My 75 F performed flawlessly the first year. This year has been a different story, with an extensive annual by Dugosh, replacement of off-brand radios, addition of WAAS GPS, and what amounts to rebuilding the Century 41 autopilot. All while I contemplated getting something faster and turbo-charged. I decided to keep my F and make the aforementioned investments for the simple reason that I already knew my F and its history. I'm still contemmplating something faster and turbo-charged. Get what you WANT now and do your best to avoid compromising. You will likely never recover the cost of upgrading an aircraft. If you must compromise, I would suggest you consider your personality objectively and figure out if you feel stronger about "toys" or about pure performance and make your purchase accordingly. Quote
Toflyordie Posted September 11, 2011 Author Report Posted September 11, 2011 Noted...Thanks Jax! Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 12, 2011 Report Posted September 12, 2011 Here is perhaps the perfect candidate for your consideration: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1967-MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1207981.htm? That is a retail price through a broker, and perhaps there is some negotiation room in there. It is certainly top-market price for an F, but if you add up the cost of the mods/equipment to any other F on the market, you'll start to see the value. Ditto if you took a clapped-out J and tried to bring it up to a similar condition... Quote
Toflyordie Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Posted September 13, 2011 Scott! High five from Germany...thanks for pointing that one out. If I was in the states right now, I'd take a gander at it. Thanks for the link! Ben Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 You're quite welcome! That is *exactly* what I had hoped to find almost 5 years ago, but they are rare to find one that far along in upgrades on the market at any given time. I ended up with a great J, but had to expand my budget 25% to get her. I'm not sorry at all it turned out that way, but I have a much bigger loan than I would have preferred... Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Quote: KSMooniac You're quite welcome! That is *exactly* what I had hoped to find almost 5 years ago, but they are rare to find one that far along in upgrades on the market at any given time. I ended up with a great J, but had to expand my budget 25% to get her. I'm not sorry at all it turned out that way, but I have a much bigger loan than I would have preferred... Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Quote: Parker_Woodruff I heard you really liked the original orange paint of your M20J and that was the deciding factor in buying it. Quote
PilotDerek Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Ben, Does your $75K range include your monthly tie down/hanger fees, insurance, and annual? Are you planning on using a MSC for your annuals or owner assisted with a local A&P? I am also in the market for a Mooney and would love a J but when I started looking at the price range of decent 20J’s along with the additional costs it has put me in the 20F range. This, to me is not bad. You can over time make a 201 out of a 20F for the most part, and it will be exactly what you want. I realize that you will lose approx 50% of the cost of all your upgrades but I see the purchase of an aircraft as a purchase of my house, long term. I have no plans on flipping it. That is one of the reasons I am going to purchase a Mooney. It is a plane that will suit me and my family’s (wife, two kids) needs for the long haul (good useful load, good speed [better with the right mods], and great fuel consumption). For your planning purposes I have been quoted $1200 for insurance (approx 70 Hr w/ only 4 in complex). I luckily have a Mooney knowledgeable A&P nearby that will allow me to do owner assisted annuals for less than $1000. There is a lot to think about and research. To me buying an aircraft has been more nerve-racking than the houses I’ve purchased (I liken buying an aircraft to getting a puppy, as they are a living being that need TLC and room to run). Just two cents from a fellow enlisted service member only 4 years from retirement. Derek Quote
jeckford Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Quote: PilotDerek For your planning purposes I have been quoted $1200 for insurance (approx 70 Hr w/ only 4 in complex). Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 $1200 seems way too low to be real IMO for a <100 hour pilot, especially without an instrument rating. Even $1600 sounds cheap. A note of encouragement, though, for y'all that are low-timers and shopping. Don't be scared of the insurance costs...you'll pay more in year 1, but if you do your part year 2 will be dramatically cheaper. The two biggest milestones are getting 100 hours in type and getting the instrument rating (if you don't already have it) and both of those are easily doable in the first year. The "additional" cost of insurance in year 1 will be dramatically less than the cost of renting something to get more experience, and especially less than buying a starter airplane to build time, then selling and buying a Mooney! I think my last insurance bill was ~$1300 with a $115k hull, hangared, and ~900 hrs experience. $1M with $100k sub-limits. Quote
PilotDerek Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Quote: jeckford Can I ask where you got this quote from? I have 100 hr with 4 complex and the cheapest I have been able to find is $1600/yr from Falcon. That is for 75k hull value. Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 Hull value is the vast majority of the premium cost these days... Quote
jetdriven Posted September 13, 2011 Report Posted September 13, 2011 J's are out there for 60-70K, and you can upgrade radios and paint for a lot less than 201 windshields, cowls, and panels. Keep looking. Our lowest time partner had 110 hours total and zero complex and our premium was $2133 through Starr. Chartis was a little more, and all other companies refused a quote. This is 90K hull, 1M/100K liability. The hull was 2/3rd the premuim. Also required 10 dual 10 solo. Just FYI. Quote
Toflyordie Posted September 14, 2011 Author Report Posted September 14, 2011 Quote: PilotDerek Ben, Does your $75K range include your monthly tie down/hanger fees, insurance, and annual? Are you planning on using a MSC for your annuals or owner assisted with a local A&P? I am also in the market for a Mooney and would love a J but when I started looking at the price range of decent 20J’s along with the additional costs it has put me in the 20F range. This, to me is not bad. You can over time make a 201 out of a 20F for the most part, and it will be exactly what you want. I realize that you will lose approx 50% of the cost of all your upgrades but I see the purchase of an aircraft as a purchase of my house, long term. I have no plans on flipping it. That is one of the reasons I am going to purchase a Mooney. It is a plane that will suit me and my family’s (wife, two kids) needs for the long haul (good useful load, good speed [better with the right mods], and great fuel consumption). For your planning purposes I have been quoted $1200 for insurance (approx 70 Hr w/ only 4 in complex). I luckily have a Mooney knowledgeable A&P nearby that will allow me to do owner assisted annuals for less than $1000. There is a lot to think about and research. To me buying an aircraft has been more nerve-racking than the houses I’ve purchased (I liken buying an aircraft to getting a puppy, as they are a living being that need TLC and room to run). Just two cents from a fellow enlisted service member only 4 years from retirement. Derek Quote
PilotDerek Posted September 14, 2011 Report Posted September 14, 2011 Quote: Toflyordie Almost forgot, I'm taking a course to get my A&P. I was thinking about doing the same thing. Can you work and sign off on your own plane? Quote
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