RobertGary1

Garmin G5 rumors

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If that plane and pilot article is accurate it specifically says no other converter boxes such as a GAD 43e are required.  This is huge if my gyro starts to go even more than It is right now. 

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1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

How do you kill something that never lived?

Isn't there a whole genre of movies about this subject? ;)

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Ooo, look, they actually announced something. Oh, dealer install only... well that was nice while it lasted.

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46 minutes ago, Steve W said:

Ooo, look, they actually announced something. Oh, dealer install only... well that was nice while it lasted.

That's how all Garmin electronics are done . . . .

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1 minute ago, Hank said:

That's how all Garmin electronics are done . . . .

Nah, I could install 2 G5s without any dealer supervision. If they had just made a dealer-only adapter to hook the G5 to the KAP 150 then that would have been great. And I'd only need them to do that one bit.

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Over on BeechTalk they said you will be able to buy the non-AHRS versions over the counter.  Anything that uses AHRS has to be installed by a dealer.

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1 hour ago, Steve W said:

Nah, I could install 2 G5s without any dealer supervision. If they had just made a dealer-only adapter to hook the G5 to the KAP 150 then that would have been great. And I'd only need them to do that one bit.

I don’t think you could ever install a gps navigator without an avionics shop. That’s what this includes. 
-Robert 

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 more I think about this the more perplexed I get.

On the page they show an aircraft with 4 of these installed.   Not only does it look like an outdated panel compared to todays standards, but can we acknowledge for a second that 4 of these units will cost $16,000.00 usd before install.    Yea, you can use it for your legacy AP.... however you could, for roughly the same price, purchase a two g5 + GFC500 setup for about the same price + a bit more for installation of the AP.   So it begs the question Why would anyone choose 4 GI 275's over 2 G5s and a digital autopilot? 

The only feature I find compelling is the synthetic vision aspect.  But I have to wonder how well it can be seen on such a small display.

Meanwhile, if you wanted to go Dynon, you can get a 10 inch display that displays ADI, moving map, synthetic vision and engine instruments with a new autopilot for $20,000 usd....   So to me, there is no reason to go down Garmins  hole.   Even if you are keeping your legacy AP, it is foolish, because when you go to replace it you are looking at another 10k + install cost to get a new garmin AP.  that puts you 26 K + install into a bunch of tiny Garmin screens.  Keep in mind at that point, the install cost will be roughly the same as both installs include engine data and autopilot installation.

At the end of 1 road you have a cluttered panel with a bunch of tiny round guages and a new AP.  At the end of the other you have a 10 inch screen with engine monitoring, a new AP, and 6000 more dollars in your pocket that you could use to have TWO 10inch  Dynon displays!

Which cockpit looks more advanced to you?   They will cost you about the same in the end.

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34 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

 more I think about this the more perplexed I get.

On the page they show an aircraft with 4 of these installed.   Not only does it look like an outdated panel compared to todays standards, but can we acknowledge for a second that 4 of these units will cost $16,000.00 usd before install.    Yea, you can use it for your legacy AP.... however you could, for roughly the same price, purchase a two g5 + GFC500 setup for about the same price + a bit more for installation of the AP.   So it begs the question Why would anyone choose 4 GI 275's over 2 G5s and a digital autopilot? 

The only feature I find compelling is the synthetic vision aspect.  But I have to wonder how well it can be seen on such a small display.

Meanwhile, if you wanted to go Dynon, you can get a 10 inch display that displays ADI, moving map, synthetic vision and engine instruments with a new autopilot for $20,000 usd....   So to me, there is no reason to go down Garmins  hole.   Even if you are keeping your legacy AP, it is foolish, because when you go to replace it you are looking at another 10k + install cost to get a new garmin AP.  that puts you 26 K + install into a bunch of tiny Garmin screens.  Keep in mind at that point, the install cost will be roughly the same as both installs include engine data and autopilot installation.

At the end of 1 road you have a cluttered panel with a bunch of tiny round guages and a new AP.  At the end of the other you have a 10 inch screen with engine monitoring, a new AP, and 6000 more dollars in your pocket that you could use to have TWO 10inch  Dynon displays!

Which cockpit looks more advanced to you?   They will cost you about the same in the end.

Don't be too swayed by the 4 unit install.   The predominant use case is to replace the HSI and AI.  We couldn't do this with G5s as they don't drive the legacy autopilots (which in many of our cases are working just fine thank you).  An Aspen 1000 with the $3k EA100 could do this for $13k before install.  This Garmin solution will do that for what looks like $8.5k.  And the install can't be more than 10 hours labor. So make it $10k all in.  That's an exceptional value proposition which now includes GPSS and the ability to get rid of vacuum pumps.

Sure, TXi and Dynon etc are nice, but frankly I see folks totally over-capitalizing their planes with $60k panels on $120k planes.  Sensible operators like schools, part 135s etc (and myself) are going to jump on this.  

PS: If a big panel of glass is your thing, I have all the moving map, traffic and standby AI I'll ever need on my iPad Mini and Sentry for less than $1000.  

 

Edited by pwnel

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16 minutes ago, pwnel said:

Don't be too swayed by the 4 unit install.   The predominant use case is to replace the HSI and AI.  We couldn't do this with G5s as they don't drive the legacy autopilots (which in many of our cases are working just fine thank you).  An Aspen 1000 with the $3k EA100 could do this for $13k before install.  This Garmin solution will do that for what looks like $8.5k.  And the install can't be more than 10 hours labor. So make it $10k all in.  That's an exceptional value proposition which now includes GPSS and the ability to get rid of vacuum pumps.

Sure, TXi and Dynon etc are nice, but frankly I see folks totally over-capitalizing their planes with $60k panels.  Sensible operators like schools, part 135s etc (and myself) is going to jump on this.  

 

 

I see what you are saying.  These will  check some boxes that others will not at this price point...

For me, I look at the big picture. Checking boxes for the sake of checking boxes isn't good enough for me in aviation.  I have too many thoughts on this to post but I will say that the small size is just a deal breaker for me.  I have 20/10 vision and I feel like these are going to be uncomfortably small now, let alone when I have aged a few more years and end up at 20/20.  I do not want to be straining to see my attitude indicator AS and ALT while on approach in bumpy weather.  That just isn't safe.

How small are they?    The GI 275 has a  2.7 inch round screen...that equates to  5.73 square inches (less actually) of screen area

The G5 for a comparison is  12.25 square inches of screen area....

So these are less than HALF the screen size and attempt to put much much more info onto them than on the G5.

I see that as a real problem.

 

What also perplexes me is this whole notion of square peg, round hole... AFAIK, you could put 6 g5's into a 6 pack panel... they would not be flush mount, but would not interfere with one another.  I just dont see how anyone was adverse to the square instruments with round bodies that fit into the existing panel holes.  It was a brilliant thing IMHO.

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Just looked this up on their website. I just assumed that the one unit could do all of the above. However they have 5 versions of this each one doing something different. 

Hate to say it, but NOT IMPRESSED. 

But kudos for adding legacy support for older AP.

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2 minutes ago, 59Moonster said:

Just looked this up on their website. I just assumed that the one unit could do all of the above. However they have 5 versions of this each one doing something different. 

Hate to say it, but NOT IMPRESSED. 

But kudos for adding legacy support for older AP.

Yeap, and if you buy them all it is 20,000 USD.

 

It may very well be that they do not intend to sell all of them for one cockpit and that they are piece mill solutions. 

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1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

I don’t think you could ever install a gps navigator without an avionics shop. That’s what this includes. 
-Robert 

What about installing a gps navigator requires an avionics shop?

I'm not impressed with these either.   The functionality is pretty cool, but I think they're trying to cram too much into a single, small, unnecessarily round (and therefore artificially limited area) display.   I think a smarter thing to have done would be to make them square and stackable, i.e., a square pfd that can sit butted up on top of a square HSI (or whatever they're configurated to look like), that can then blend the displays to look like a single, larger display if desired.   You could still independently select display type on each, but they'd know there was two and they could share the space for display.   e.g., an SV display could  be spread across both instead of just one, or they displays could declutter by not showing too much duplicated info on each if they were both operating.

Anyway, I see similar limitations to what others have mentioned.   I was hoping for more, but it isn't to be.   :(

 

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The extra interesting thing is that the KI-256 does not fit in a round hole.  So, if you want it for a KI-256 replacement, you get to buy (or the shop gets to manufacture) an adapter plate.

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Well that’s funny.  Here I am picking up my airplane from getting dual G5s installed and I think I’d have been better off with 2 of these!  The G5s were a real tight fit and couldn’t be flush.  They also slightly cover some writing on the panel (callsign).  For a 51 year old airplane these would have been a superb upgrade with limited panel surgery.  
In my opinion, it looks like they are more capable than G5s too... syn vis (yeah its small), flight path marker, auto pilot connectivity, and hsi ADSB weather display, etc.

Maybe the G5 will get an upgrade to match?

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This equipment still doesn’t connect the swaths of legacy autopilots with which it’s compatible with a path to the GFC 500 autopilot.  I suppose it does for the GFC 600.  

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33 minutes ago, EricJ said:

What about installing a gps navigator requires an avionics shop?

I'm not impressed with these either.   The functionality is pretty cool, but I think they're trying to cram too much into a single, small, unnecessarily round (and therefore artificially limited area) display.   I think a smarter thing to have done would be to make them square and stackable, i.e., a square pfd that can sit butted up on top of a square HSI (or whatever they're configurated to look like), that can then blend the displays to look like a single, larger display if desired.   You could still independently select display type on each, but they'd know there was two and they could share the space for display.   e.g., an SV display could  be spread across both instead of just one, or they displays could declutter by not showing too much duplicated info on each if they were both operating.

Anyway, I see similar limitations to what others have mentioned.   I was hoping for more, but it isn't to be.   :(

 

The display you're seeing with everything on it is an optional one; probably best for demos. You can have it show just simple attitude, or CDI, etc.

 

-Robert

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1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

 

 

What also perplexes me is this whole notion of square peg, round hole... AFAIK, you could put 6 g5's into a 6 pack panel... they would not be flush mount, but would not interfere with one another.  I just dont see how anyone was adverse to the square instruments with round bodies that fit into the existing panel holes.  It was a brilliant thing IMHO.

Every shop I've talked to say they do interfere with each other and you have to egg out the holes to get two G5's on top of each other.

-Robert

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16 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Every shop I've talked to say they do interfere with each other and you have to egg out the holes to get two G5's on top of each other.

-Robert

 

So to avoid a little dremel tool work they make a round unit with a smaller screen that cost 1500 dollars more?

 

I looked up the manual, to do vertical, you can egg out each hole by 1/8th inch.  That isn't much.  probably 30 min with a dremel.  That FITS in my book.

 

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Just now, Austintatious said:

 

So to avoid a little dremel tool work they make a round unit with a smaller screen that cost 1500 dollars more?

 

I'm sure that was on the list. Working with legacy auto pilots and having the processing power internally for future stuff was probably also a lot of it. The G5 is stretched far beyond what it was originally envisioned for according to the Garmin sales guy.

-Robert

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1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

How small are they?    The GI 275 has a  2.7 inch round screen...that equates to  5.73 square inches (less actually) of screen area

The G5 for a comparison is  12.25 square inches of screen area....

So these are less than HALF the screen size and attempt to put much much more info onto them than on the G5.

I see that as a real problem.

What?

The G5 Screen is 3.5" Diagonal in a 4:3 ratio. 2.1" x 2.8" or 5.88" screen area, it's about 8% bigger. Sure, the whole box is much bigger, but difference in screens is not much at all.

 

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5 minutes ago, Steve W said:

What?

The G5 Screen is 3.5" Diagonal in a 4:3 ratio. 2.1" x 2.8" or 5.88" screen area, it's about 8% bigger. Sure, the whole box is much bigger, but difference in screens is not much at all.

 

Ohh, it looks square to me... Where are you seeing that it is a 4:3 ratio?  I believe you and at the same time I am surprised at the area difference square vs 4:3 makes with a 3.5" diagonal.  I just cant find where Garmin states the ratio... they just say 3.5 inch diagonal.

If that be the case, my apologies.

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Just now, Austintatious said:

Ohh, it looks square to me... Where are you seeing that it is a 4:3 ratio?  I believe you and at the same time I am surprised at the area difference square vs 4:3 makes with a 3.5" diagonal.  I just cant find where Garmin states the ratio... they just say 3.5 inch diagonal.

If that be the case, my apologies.

"320 x 240 pixels (QVGA)"

Which would make it 4:3

Square would only increase it to about 6.12 square inches.

It sounds like the 12-ish square inch number for the G5 is the entire face including the 'giant' bezel and not just the active display area, where the 3.5" diagonal on the G5 and the 2.7inch diameter for the 275 are both just the active display.

 

 

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I wonder if one of these displaying attitude,alitude and airspeed could backup my existing G500 primary display?

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For the price I'd rather have seen them upgrade the G5 to do all these things.  But I may still find myself getting one or two of these 275's in the next year or two as my HSI and gyro are showing signs that they are near end of life.  I would have purchased a KI300 a year and a half ago had it been available when my vacuum pump died.  Instead I put in a new pump.

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