Average annual cost for everything except fuel on a 1960s 1970s era Mooney M20 series

[Pilot boy]

Any estimates on your annual cost of keeping a Mooney of this age flying would be very helpful.  Am I looking at approximately $1k a month for maintenance like random squawks, the annual, hangar and an engine fund? 

How much do you pay for insurance annually?

I'd like as much info as possible with budget numbers so all models of the 20 series are of interest - C,F,J etc 

I'm trying to justify buying a Mooney versus just continuing to rent less capable planes.

How often does something rough happen like a 500 hr engine dying on you, or wings needing resealed and you have a random $15k or $20k bill?

Thank you everyone and happy flying!

[larryb]

You'll have to add it up yourself based on your location. People here spend between $150 and $1000 / month for a hanger based on where you live. There are similar regional differences in maintenance costs. Maintenance costs are in a large part luck. You can have an engine last 500 hours or 2500 hours. You have to have the financial depth to handle an engine rebuild at any moment. There is no average. 

But you cannot justify ownership on cost. It won't cost less, may cost more. You justify on things you can do as an owner that you cannot do as a renter. As an owner you can take it on a 3 week cross country adventure. You can take it 2 hours away and park it for a week, and fly back. When you fly it, the plane is just like you left it after your previous flight. 

I just completed a 34 hour, 3 week, 5300 mile trip. I have flown to Flagstaff, parked it for 3 weeks and rafted the Grand Canyon. You simply cannot do those things renting a plane.

 

[FloridaMan]

Where are you located? Vintage Mooneys are inexpensive to own and operate if you have a good shop to work with. 

Don’t rush into your purchase, but take your time and buying the airplane is the correct decision. 

[bradp]

The only thing I’ll say are there are no shortcuts in aircraft ownership.   Pay the piper now or later - the piper will still be paid in the end.  The utility curve for rent vs own favors own somewhere around 100hrs/year.   Perceived “deals” on a purchase or deferred Maint will come back to bite on resale or expensive annuals until the “deal” has evaporated.   Maintenance is my personal reason for owning and doing sole ownership vs partnership - I want total control to keep the plane as I want it in the best shape possible.  

Total costs for this habit per year are in the neighborhood of purchasing a used Honda Civic ranging to new Honda Civic bought every single year - this is how I think about it.  

Most Mooney maintenance is predictable and few items will be surprises at annual.  The big ticket items are engine, tanks, windows and gear pucks.  Finding an aircraft that is well maintained and regularly flown ... ie >100/year is the single most important factor in avoiding premature overhaul.   I’d also posit the presence of an engine monitor with an owner that understands how to use it and interpret the data is another predictor of engine longevity.  

Finding the best maintained updates example within your target Model (C, E, J, M etc) is the way to go.  It is the way to avoid surprise bills and enjoy ownership  

I spent $1400 on insurance this year (this is for “smooth coverage” a bit more expensive)

Hangar is $550 per month. Having had the plane both outside and inside, the plane takes a ton of abuse outside - I don’t leave my lawnmower out, I don’t leave a plane outdoors either.  Got hailed on once on a waitlist for a hangar.  Hangar should be the first thing to look for prior to plane purchase.  

Databases and subscriptions are $600/year 

I spent <4K total maintenance costs this year (range has been 1.5k to 8.5k over 8 years, average 4K per year).  I have not had to do major engine work in the last 700 hrs of ownership.  I know certain items I am going to do next year include prop IRAN/reseal and send one mag.  I may do valve wobble and honing next year. I am budgeting for a major avionics upgrade in the next year.  Most mooney maintenance is on condition instead of on schedule - exceptions include mags, gear actuator for electric gear mooney, to some degree prop. 

[Yetti]

Have 10K in the bank after you purchase.

100 and hour to fly

Hangar 250 - 500

Insurance 1500

Subscriptions

about 2 - 5K to find and get home

Figure about 3k an upgrade per year.

 

[Bob_Belville]

@Pilot boy, use the search function here. There are several threads you'll find useful.

Having said that...

Maintenance: a vintage Mooney is well built airplane. Maintenance costs for a new to you plane will depend upon how well previous owners have kept up with the upkeep. A plane with cursory annuals and deferred repairs will mean a new owner has outsized bills for the first few years. Once everything is caught up maintenance need not be but a few thousand a year.

Fixed costs of owning any airplane:

• insurance-about $1000 for $50k hull and an instrument pilot with time in type,
• hangar-all about location, check with your airport(s),
• annual inspection-$2k +/-,
• perhaps subscriptions-up to $1k.
• (The Lycoming engine and most of the accessories - starter, battery, alternator, vacuum pump, mags, brakes, carburetor or fuel servo - in a vintage Mooney are common with other brands and their individual lifespan is a mystery. Most of that stuff costs several times what it seems it should.)

Mooney specific issues: there are a few items to look out for when buying. Get a mechanic with as much Mooney experience as possible to do a PPI. Ask him/her to tell you about spar corrosion, wet wing fuel tank leaks, gear pucks... that first item is causing the scrapping of nice looking Mooneys more frequently as the fleet ages. Be sure the aircraft logs make sense, has the plane flown regularly? Log book entries document what was done. In many cases you'd like to know why.

That may sound intimidating. OTOH, Mooneys are, even in a strengthening market, a bargain compared to most other brands. Apparently trade in Skylanes and Archers is great, easy to sell strong prices compared to Mooneys.   

 

[Pilot boy]

6 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

Where are you located? Vintage Mooneys are inexpensive to own and operate if you have a good shop to work with. 

Don’t rush into your purchase, but take your time and buying the airplane is the correct decision. 

I am in the midwest, Omaha, Nebraska

[Pilot boy]

40 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

@Pilot boy, use the search function here. There are several threads you'll find useful.

Having said that...

Maintenance: a vintage Mooney is well built airplane. Maintenance costs for a new to you plane will depend upon how well previous owners have kept up with the upkeep. A plane with cursory annuals and deferred repairs will mean a new owner has outsized bills for the first few years. Once everything is caught up maintenance need not be but a few thousand a year.

Fixed costs of owning any airplane:

• insurance-about $1000 for $50k hull and an instrument pilot with time in type,
• hangar-all about location, check with your airport(s),
• annual inspection-$2k +/-,
• perhaps subscriptions-up to $1k.
• (The Lycoming engine and most of the accessories - starter, battery, alternator, vacuum pump, mags, brakes, carburetor or fuel servo - in a vintage Mooney are common with other brands and their individual lifespan is a mystery. Most of that stuff costs several times what it seems it should.)

Mooney specific issues: there are a few items to look out for when buying. Get a mechanic with as much Mooney experience as possible to do a PPI. Ask him/her to tell you about spar corrosion, wet wing fuel tank leaks, gear pucks... that first item is causing the scrapping of nice looking Mooneys more frequently as the fleet ages. Be sure the aircraft logs make sense, has the plane flown regularly? Log book entries document what was done. In many cases you'd like to know why.

That may sound intimidating. OTOH, Mooneys are, even in a strengthening market, a bargain compared to most other brands. Apparently trade in Skylanes and Archers is great, easy to sell strong prices compared to Mooneys.   

 

Awesome, thank you.  I'm in the midwest so hangar rates are very cheap - about $150 per month.  I was planning on about $12k per year for maintenance but it seems like that is probably a bit high once I get all the initial bugs ironed out.  Is there a good Mooney mechanic in this vicinity of omaha, nebraska?  kansas city?  minneapolis?

[kpaul]

Just now, Pilot boy said:

Is there a good Mooney mechanic in this vicinity of omaha, nebraska?  kansas city?  minneapolis?

Minneapolis - Yes.  Oasis Aero, a Mooney service center (  http://oasisaero.com/ )and Weep no More (tank sealing specialist) are located in Willmar MN about 80 NM from Minneapolis.

[FloridaMan]

12k/yr should easily cover owning an m20f. In my opinion, they’re one of the cheapest airplanes to own if you plan to use it to go places. You’re getting similar gas mileage to a Cessna 152. 

The only year I spent more than 12k on my m20f in maintenance was when I had my engine overhauled, and if I amortize that across all the other years, it’s still well under 12k. 

Hell, I think I spend less on my Rocket than friends that got talked into buying new pickup trucks loaded with options. 

[1964-M20E]

Like the commercial showing the difference between first time parents and 3rd kid parents.

before buying a plane, multiple spreadsheets, countless what if scenarios, check the bank account balance, checking  for free unallocated cash reserves in weekly pay etc.

2 years after buying a plane and you survived your first annual, insurance and hangar rent is paid for another year WTF let's go fly it only cost fuel

Evaluate if you can afford $8k to $15k a year of discretionary spending after the capital investment for the plane itself.  If the answer is yes then find the right plane and buy it

 

Now fly it like you stole it and don't worry about what is cost within reason.

 

 

 

[RobertGary1]

I bought a plane with a low time factory new engine maintained by a Mooney service center. My first two annuals were right around $10,000 each just all the little stuff to get it up to speed.  

you need to call a broker for insurance since numbers people post here won’t mean anything. It varies tremendously based on many factors.

 

 -Robert   

[Jerry 5TJ]

4 hours ago, bradp said:

 

.....Total costs for this habit per year are in the neighborhood of purchasing a used Honda Civic ranging to new Honda Civic bought every single year - this is how I think about it.... 

 

... this sure seems a good way to ballpark costs for light aircraft ownership. 

[KSMooniac]

... this sure seems a good way to ballpark costs for light aircraft ownership. 

I agree! And that is also a big reason why my daily driver is now 15 years old...and I bought it when it was 7 years old for little money.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[steingar]

You asked for it...

$290/mo hangar= $2400/year

Insurance= $1400/year

Maintenance: last year I spent $1400 + another 2K for some avionics

I only did this because I had a passenger on the Oshkosh trip and I had to know what to charge him.  I came up with $150/hour

[Bob_Belville]

You asked for it...
$290/mo hangar= $2400/year

I only did this because I had a passenger on the Oshkosh trip and I had to know what to charge him.  I came up with $150/hour

Careful, as you probably know, if you’re a PP, flying part 91, you can share costs but you cannot charge. Someone else can provide the details of the distinction.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RobertGary1]

51 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

 

Careful, as you probably know, if you’re a PP, flying part 91, you can share costs but you cannot charge. Someone else can provide the details of the distinction.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Yea, he probably shouldn't state that in public. Unless you're 135...

"The regulation says that a private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees."

https://pilot-protection-services.aopa.org/news/2014/august/01/pro-rata-cost-sharing-the-math-matters

[TheTurtle]

tiedown - 150 /month

annual - 900 /year

oil changes - $250/year

insurance - $1300ish /yea

random broken shit - $1000-$8000 (although this year has been pretty good, no big ticket broken stuff or rebuilds or replacements)

[larryb]

It is the price of one kid in college or private school.

[bonal]

11 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

tiedown - 150 /month

annual - 900 /year

oil changes - $250/year

insurance - $1300ish /yea

random broken shit - $1000-$8000 (although this year has been pretty good, no big ticket broken stuff or rebuilds or replacements)

Don't get sucked into the idea that an annual is going to be under a thousand dollars. There are some owners that have been lucky enough to have a relationship with an IA that works out that way but it is not common. I'm not sure If there is an exact number but for a non issue annual you can expect to have at least 20 hours required to do things right. Shop rates are usually over one hundred an hour. As for your original question sadly there is no sure way to figure out total costs until your in and looking back.  These old airplanes are so vastly different in what will be needed for their proper care. 

Good luck and enjoy the experience and don't try to look at it logically because owning an airplane is not logical it has to be about a passion that goes beyond numbers.

[RogueOne]

5 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

Awesome, thank you.  I'm in the midwest so hangar rates are very cheap - about $150 per month.  I was planning on about $12k per year for maintenance but it seems like that is probably a bit high once I get all the initial bugs ironed out.  Is there a good Mooney mechanic in this vicinity of omaha, nebraska?  kansas city?  minneapolis?

Asked and answered by me to you on another thread.  Guess you didn’t like the answer?  $12k/year for maintenance is crazy high unless you buy a P.O.S.  Buy a flying Mooney that has been taken care of and $6k a year...$3k a year for maintenance is HIGH...

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Careful, as you probably know, if you’re a PP, flying part 91, you can share costs but you cannot charge. Someone else can provide the details of the distinction.

 

That's why I totaled things up, something I hate to do.  I had to down what his  share was.

[Oldguy]

All of the above is right on track UNTIL you decide to update/upgrade something in your plane. Then you have the opportunity to get into the upgrade/update process, and get "while I am in the panel/engine/interior, I might as well do...."-itis, and your little $5000 project adds another digit.

Or, you restrain yourself from doing that, and after you spend a modest amount on your panel, your engine feels neglected and starts burning oil like you own the oil well.

In all seriousness, it is wise to begin a contingency fund to handle any expensive problems which may happen without warning. Either cash or a credit card with a sufficient limit will do, but nothing is more demoralizing than having spent money on a plane only to not fly it because a somewhat expensive problem popped up unexpectedly which you cannot fix due to cost.

My annual expenses: $4000 for large box hangar, $1400 for insurance, $2000-$3000 for annual inspection, ~$1000 for subscriptions, $100 per oil change (done by me)

I am fortunate to have a former MSC mechanic on my home field across from the avionics shop. He does things for me like pull my plane into his air conditioned hangar on weekends while working on my interior this summer. All of this helps keep my costs relatively low.

[RobertGary1]

12 minutes ago, steingar said:

That's why I totaled things up, something I hate to do.  I had to down what his  share was.

But sadly the FAA doens't allow you to include those costs. Its just direct, fuel, oil, FBO fees, etc. That's why its a good idea to rent because for rentals you can legally charge a pro rated share of what it actually costs.

-Robert

[MIm20c]

Flying is expensive. Flying a lot, 150-200 hrs per year, and keeping the plane in good repair can increase the yearly cost to a nice new car. Take a newer plane 2000+ to a MSC and my guess is you will see a $4-5k annual. Stuff adds up quick.