Story - Near Midair with same Cirrus TWICE

[201er]

I had a somewhat eventful traffic pattern coming in to land at Linden. Very close call, nearly a midair, with a Cirrus on downwind and then again with the same plane on base! When he cut in on base leg from behind me, I had had it and went around. I don't know what's up with Cirrus's trying to intercept other airplanes later, but I'm not loving it. I shared the full story here in the video. Might write it up later if I have a chance.

 

 

[carusoam]

Nice work, 201er...

Cirrus pilot must have thought he could follow you without ever being able to catch up...

In a busy traffic pattern at an uncontrolled field... often pilots will let everyone know, what position they are in to land...

Cirrus, following Mooney, #2 to land...

Of course, it helps to hear... Cirrus, extending the downwind for separation, #2 to land behind the Mooney...

One  plane per pattern segment...

• final
• base
• downwind (descending)

 

Sound like your new Cirrus friend doesn’t have much uncontrolled field experience...

Linden has so many interesting and distracting ground features, chemical factories, my favorite pharma plant, oil storage... following another plane, oddly may have made sense to the errant pilot...

What a great experience to practice your high stress negotiation skills.  Calling the Cirrus Jerk, a name probably indicates you need more practice...  

You might consider asking if he intends to use the drag chute to avoid catching up to you....  (you need to know, or you can’t land)

+1 on Going Around... somebody that close in... is probably going to carry a bunch of energy and end up using a lot of runway... coming up behind you... as you slow to make the turn-off.

Thanks for sharing the details...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[elimansour]

This is upsetting - the Cirrus driver had a cavalier attitude and did not seem to realize that he is not just endangering you but also himself.  Cutting you off was just a total d$#k move especially when you were on base and announcing your intentions.

Giving him a wide berth, both in the air and on the ground, was the best move you made.  Not worth arguing with him - I'm sure he would have ignored you or given you attitude.  Sometimes you just can't change people with such a disregard for safety, courtesy and common sense...just stay away from them...you'll read about them at some point as their lack respect for the risks involved will catch up with them.

Glad you are safe.

[201er]

6 minutes ago, elimansour said:

This is upsetting - the Cirrus driver had a cavalier attitude and did not seem to realize that he is not just endangering you but also himself.  Cutting you off was just a total d$#k move especially when you were on base and announcing your intentions.

Giving him a wide berth, both in the air and on the ground, was the best move you made.  Not worth arguing with him - I'm sure he would have ignored you or given you attitude.  Sometimes you just can't change people with such a disregard for safety, courtesy and common sense...just stay away from them...you'll read about them at some point as their lack respect for the risks involved will catch up with them.

Glad you are safe.

Well summed up the “feeling” I was getting and how it was going through in my mind. But, I don’t want to read about him. I just hope everyone can learn and be better for it.

9 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Sound like your new Cirrus friend doesn’t have much uncontrolled field experience...

That’s not something I thought of but looking him up on Flight aware, you may be onto something!

[steingar]

If there's someone like that in the patten I go elsewhere.  I've not found anywhere I need to land that badly. Though the aviation utopia of Linden New Jersey might be tempting.

Edited July 3, 2019 by steingar

[neilpilot]

6 minutes ago, steingar said:

If there's someone like that in the patten I go elsewhere.  I've not found anywhere I need to land that badly.

So if your returning to KOSU and you encounter this Cirrus, you will go somewhere else?  That's an interesting but somewhat inconvenient option.  Why not just either go around or leave the pattern and then rejoin, as 201er did at his Linden base?

[steingar]

2 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

So if your returning to KOSU and you encounter this Cirrus, you will go somewhere else?  That's an interesting but somewhat inconvenient option.  Why not just either go around or leave the pattern and then rejoin, as 201er did at his Linden base?

KOSU has a tower that keeps the Cirrus jerks (and me) under control.  That said, this exact same thing happened to me at a nearby airport.  Only difference was it wasn't a Cirrus.  After the first encounter I went around and went to a different airport to do my landings.  We have lots around here, must suck for NJ to have such a paucity.  Were it my home airport and I had problems like this I'd go fly around or go elsewhere until the problem either landed or departed the area.  Not worth getting upset over, just clear the area until the danger departs.

One time at TZR my buddy was getting his currency when the controller went a bit nuts, started moving airplanes all over the place.  I wanted to get on my handheld and tell him to clear the area.  Like I said, just not worth it.  Like weather, these things are usually temporary.

[PTK]

11 hours ago, 201er said:

I had a somewhat eventful traffic pattern coming in to land at Linden.

Coming from 47N you entered the standard pattern directly on downwind. The Cirrus entered on a 45. Sounds like there was miscommunication or no communication of intent from both of you. He didn’t announce his intentions on entering on a 45 and you didn’t announce yours to enter direct downwind. You can't read his mind and he can't read yours. This is why we communicate clearly our intentions. No harm no foul. Out of caution I would’ve gotten out of his way as soon as I saw him approaching on downwind. Glad it all worked out.

[exM20K]

Ah.... linden.  Was based there for several years.  Lots of helicopter traffic, the occasional banner tow operator, all sorts of excitement.

glad it all worked out for you, but golly: that ramp in your stills.... somebody buy Dudley a sprayer and some Roundup.  Are they really letting the place go?

-dan

[201er]

13 minutes ago, exM20K said:

glad it all worked out for you, but golly: that ramp in your stills.... somebody buy Dudley a sprayer and some Roundup.  Are they really letting the place go?

-dan

You kidding? This is after they mowed the runway!

[carusoam]

The traffic pattern is pretty short, time wise, to have a two way conversation...

1) You can ask... hey Cirrus can you extend your downwind to give me some time to clear the runway for you?

2) That requires a quick response from the Cirrus... who already turned based too soon for comfort...

3) Linden comes with a unique TPA and edge of Class B restriction...

• Altitude is lower than most people normally experience, and relative distances start getting skewed...
• Cirrus guy probably was in fear of running long into the class B... keeping his pattern tight.

4) Effective communication is a great skill to have... some people are challenged by giving position reports while in the pattern. Never mind having a two way discussion.

5) From the lack of position reports, and following too closely, you know something isn’t right about their decision executing process...

6) Who wants to be in front of that... while being slow on the ground...?

I think this is where Mav is given the advice that it was a better choice to  ‘extend and escape’  escaping in this case... get out of the way of the errant pilot following closely... he won’t know what to do once he catches you on the runway... plane brakes don’t work very well compared to cars...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

The airport I fly into has crop dusters. They are in a entire different universe, no pattern, no radios. I have had plenty of conversations with them. It goes about as well as talking to a New York Taxi cab driver about cutting you off.

[Tony Starke]

You represented the Mooney family well, very professional. "Jerk" was fine in my book, "Dick" would have been my go to word, but I'm a Gen X'er. Glad you're safe and took the time to make the video.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Coming from 47N you entered the standard pattern directly on downwind. The Cirrus entered on a 45. Sounds like there was miscommunication or no communication of intent from both of you. He didn’t announce his intentions on entering on a 45 and you didn’t announce yours to enter direct downwind. You can't read his mind and he can't read yours. This is why we communicate clearly our intentions. No harm no foul. Out of caution I would’ve gotten out of his way as soon as I saw him approaching on downwind. Glad it all worked out.

From the sound of it, the Mike made  standard calls while approaching the pattern. The Cirrus made no calls whatsoever. If the Cirrus had made calls, then it would have made sense to further coordinate how and when they were going to enter the downwind.  Mike's rationale for why he stayed on the downwind going straight makes a lot of sense to me, although what is best to do here may be debatable.  Right now, I'm not sure I would do anything different from him after listening to his scenario but I'm curious what others think. The fact that the Cirrus then cut him off on the base turn is even more repugnant than not talking on CTAF at a place like Linden.  Keeping ones anger under control in the air and focusing on safety in these situations might be the biggest takeaway.

[jaylw314]

29 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

3) Linden comes with a unique TPA and edge of Class B restriction...

• Altitude is lower than most people normally experience, and relative distances start getting skewed...
• Cirrus guy probably was in fear of running long into the class B... keeping his pattern tight.

sounds like the Linden TPA is 800 ft AGL?  This is a pretty common alternative to the standard altitude of 1000 AGL.  

I can buy the Class B segments playing a role in his bad decisions.  Bear in mind, he also may not have been released from ATC to change frequency to CTAF until right at the airport if he was on an IFR plan.

[Shadrach]

I don't think any of this was an accident.   I think he intentionally gave you multiple haircuts because he felt compelled to prove something...what he thought he was proving I have no idea.  I have seen this behavior before on the ground and in the air.  Similar vibe to the one I would get from some of the guys I've encounter driving new WRXs, modded civics etc when I am enjoying a some stick time in a geriatric Porsche.  Many wanted to race off a stop light and others would do absolutely bat guano crazy stuff in traffic just to be a few vehicles ahead of me.  Once in the descent to State College I jogged by a Cherokee six while we were about 15 miles out.  It was evident that as soon as he realized he was being passed, he firewalled everything to reduce the speed differential just enough to create spacing discomfort upon reaching the pattern.  

You were the bigger man for not engaging him on the ground.  I'm not sure that I'd have been as virtuous. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[PTK]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

From the sound of it, the Mike made  standard calls while approaching the pattern.

I’m not excusing the Cirrus pilot. By the same token I’m not prepared to blame him entirely.  It appears that neither one of them made standard calls. The Cirrus never communicated his intent to enter on a 45 nor Mike his intent to enter straight in dw. Contributing to this is the 800 msl overlying class B shelf restraining their altitude. Had they both properly communicated their positions and intentions they would’ve been able to adjust.

[201er]

11 minutes ago, PTK said:

It appears that neither one of them made standard calls. The Cirrus never communicated his intent to enter on a 45 and Mike his intent to enter straight in dw. Contributing to this is the 800 msl overlying class B shelf restraining their altitude. Had they both properly communicated their positions and intentions they would’ve been able to adjust.

Wouldn't have mattered because the Cirrus said he didn't hear me make any calls at all until the one where I said Mooney was right in front of him. I didn't hear him make a single call prior to saying he is slowing down either. If it weren't my home field, I could believe that I could have messed up the frequency. But hearing traffic from my airport and other airports that share the frequency indicates to me that things are working on my end.

So given that the Cirrus was either distracted, on wrong frequency,  joined frequency late, whatever it is, the failsafe in this case of communications breakdown should have been see and avoid. I had to see and avoid both the time he was coming at me on the downwind and when he cut inside of me on base. I agree, radio communications weren't going well. But if I wasn't seeing him both times, we'd be entirely in the hands of big sky theory and luck!

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate is what I've been taught. So communication was last priority on the list of flying my plane and watching out for his plane when it all came down to it. Remembering to put the wheels down and not getting too distracted to fly my plane was first. Avoiding him was second. And only what focus was remaining was used for communication. Given that this all happened in the span of about 1 minute between the first close encounter and the second, there was not a lot of time to hash it all out. Also, with Bravo airspace above and to most sides of the airport, there isn't much room to circle or change the traffic pattern.

Edited July 3, 2019 by 201er

[201er]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I don't think any of this was an accident.   I think he intentionally gave you multiple haircuts because he felt compelled to prove something...what thought he was proving I have no idea.  I have seen this behavior before on the ground and in the air.  Similar vibe to the one I would get from some of the guys I've encounter driving new WRXs, modded civics etc when I am enjoying a some stick time in a geriatric Porsche.  Many wanted to race off a stop light and others would do absolutely bat guano crazy stuff in traffic just to be a few vehicles ahead of me.  Once in the descent to State College I jogged by a Cherokee six while we were about 15 miles out.  It was evident that as soon as he realized he was being passed, he firewalled everything to reduce the speed differential just enough to create spacing discomfort upon reaching the pattern.  

You were the bigger man for not engaging him on the ground.  I'm not sure that I'd have been as virtuous. 

I ended up calling him a Jerk because this was what it seemed like. I still hope to think it's some kind of novice inexperience that can be corrected with time. But the attitude demonstrated in the actions and in the limited radio communications led me to believe that there would be little benefit or value from having a conversation on the ground. Seeing him pull onto the transient ramp further made me less interested in pursuing it further. Looking up the registration, it says that the aircraft was last purchased in Feb of this year... go figures. Wonder if flying around in a car like interior with a parachute attached plays into the attitude.

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, PTK said:

It appears that neither one of them made standard calls. The Cirrus never communicated his intent to enter on a 45 nor Mike his intent to enter straight in dw. Contributing to this is the 800 msl overlying class B shelf restraining their altitude. Had they both properly communicated their positions and intentions they would’ve been able to adjust.

I would never approach Linden without using ATC.  IIRC New York Approach cleared me into the Bravo at or below 2000.  I was handed off to Newark tower and they sounded quite annoyed that Center had given me Bravo clearance.  I was immediately instructed to perform a descending left hand 360 to get below the Bravo shelf.  It was not a comfortable arrival. I'm glad there was little traffic in the area.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Shadrach

[201er]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I would never approach Linden without using ATC.  IIRC New York Approach cleared me into the Bravo at or below 2000.  I was handed off to Newark tower and they sounded quite annoyed that Center had given me Bravo clearance.  I was immediately instructed to perform a descending left hand 360 to get below the Bravo shelf.

When I approach Linden from a direction that requires communications with ATC (for example coming off the Hudson at 1500), I work both radios talking to Newark Tower on one and monitoring and self announcing on the other. It's plenty busy and yet over 8 years of being based there, things have been pretty manageable. This encounter just tops any other. The helicopters can be challenging and erratic but they are also familiar and professional so we manage to work it out every time.

Another close encounter I recall in the pattern at Linden wasn't in my plane. I was being flown back from dropping my plane for maintenance in Trenton-Robinsville by an instructor in a Cherokee. He has us on left upwind for left traffic for 9 (same as downwind for 27). He is busy looking at and trying to avoid a large airliner a few miles away (that would never affect the local pattern) when there was a helicopter coming head on at similar altitude in the right downwind for 9! I had to slam the controls to bank away. Don't remember communications for that time but again, it's really just about looking outside and doing what's necessary.

Obviously there was no time to communicate with the helicopter but there wasn't sufficient time to tell the flying pilot that there is traffic and suggest a turn. Had to take action first and then explain after.

Edited July 3, 2019 by 201er

[Shadrach]

Even though you blurred the N number, it took little google fu to find that this plane is owned and managed by a CSIP (Cirrus Standerdized Instruction Pilot) training facility based at nearby Essex County airport.  They have an SR20 and an SR22T (with which you interacted).  Their website is kind of a pretentious exercise in self adoration.  You will be comforted to know that the airplane that cut you off is maintained above industry standards and is part of an "All-new fleet" and is "Airline pilot owned"...So they've got that going for them...which is nice.  They are indeed going after non aviation types of customers.  

I do give Cirrus credit for marketing. They are becoming the Patagonia of aircraft...

[201er]

30 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Even though you blurred the N number, it took little google fu to find that this plane is owned and managed by a CSIP (Cirrus Standerdized Instruction Pilot) training facility based at nearby Essex County airport.  They have an SR20 and an SR22T (with which you interacted).  Their website is kind of a pretentious exercise in self adoration.  You will be comforted to know that the airplane that cut you off is maintained above industry standards and is part of an "All-new fleet" and is "Airline pilot owned"...So they've got that going for them...which is nice.  They are indeed going after non aviation types of customers.  

I do give Cirrus credit for marketing. They are becoming the Patagonia of aircraft...

Wow, I didn't dig that far but now that you mentioned it I looked up the company. Pretentious is probably an understatement:

"We are professional pilots who believe in pilot safety first and foremost. Given this core tenet, it would be irresponsible and hypocritical not to fly the very best equipment available. The Cirrus SR Series (w/ Garmin Perspective+ avionics) is a highly advanced general aviation piston aircraft and in some ways, more advanced than the jets that we flew in the Part 121 world."

I guess the guy I ran into must have thought I'm the irresponsible one for flying an unsafe piece of junk Mooney and looking out the windows instead of flying behind the most sophisticated Garmin Avionics...

[Rwsavory]

I've been cut off in the pattern at least a couple times.  Everyone is entitled to a bad day or a mistake.  My SOP is to get out of the pattern if something funky is happening.  You did the right thing in getting out of there, but I would not have called the guy a jerk.  There's no need for that, even in New Jersey.

A very long time ago I was flying with my dad to Block Island, RI, and he cut somebody off in the pattern.  The other plane had made an extended downwind, and Dad just turned a quick base and final and landed.  The other guy was super-hot about it, and my dear old dad told him to "drop dead."  That made an impression on me, and I try not get into disputes with other pilots.

A long time ago I was entering left traffic on a mid-field cross-wind when the plane in front of me decided to do the "tear drop" entry to a downwind.  I just continued to turn downwind.  Was I a jerk?  Maybe, but nobody got upset or called each other names.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

I’m not excusing the Cirrus pilot. By the same token I’m not prepared to blame him entirely.  It appears that neither one of them made standard calls. The Cirrus never communicated his intent to enter on a 45 nor Mike his intent to enter straight in dw. Contributing to this is the 800 msl overlying class B shelf restraining their altitude. Had they both properly communicated their positions and intentions they would’ve been able to adjust.

Wow, how can you possibly equate Mike not specifying  entering 45 or direct downwind with  Cirrus guy making no calls at all?  The Cirrus pilot would almost certainly have seen Mike first but didn't say a word until he got dangerously close and then was prompted by Mike.   If the Cirrus pilot got the frequency change late, he should have announced his presence  immediately - as long as people are talking  and acting in good faith, the details can be worked out easily to avoid conflict.  I agree with Ross that the Cirrus pilot was likely being an a-hole on purpose.

Edited July 3, 2019 by DXB