A certain flavor of “hero”

[ilovecornfields]

33 minutes ago, DXB said:

“First do no harm" seems to be the overarching principle that is being violated here.  Glad it turned out ok.

That is exactly the issue! I think what @ziggysanchez has missed is that the intervention this guy performed was NOT helpful and possibly harmful, not to mention likely in violation of several FARs. While no one here can know his motivation at the time, watching his interview and his parade of self-promotion afterwards certainly gives some insight into his character.

Some of the most harmful things that have happened in this world occurred because people thought they were “doing the right thing.” On a smaller scale, I see this all the time with people who don’t really what what they’re doing giving people bad advice, resulting in a trip to see me. Some of this has come from people with the best intentions, that unfortunately decided to meddle where they had no business doing so. 

From everything I’ve seen about this, the guy in the Arrow would have been just fine without this guy. I have a few hundred hours in one and at 3000’, even the “greased anvil” glide ratio of the Arrow II is sufficient to make it safely on the ground. Raising the gear and flaps as this idiot told him to almost made him overshoot the runway.

We seem to have a society that excuses incompetence with good intentions and since I often see the harm in this, I do not tolerate it. As one of my mentors in emergency medicine was known to say, “don’t just do something, stand there.” 

As I’ve mentioned before, I have no hesitation to declare an emergency and ask for help when I need it. Some wannabe fighter pilot sneaking up behind me and ordering me around uninvited when MY personal safety is on the line would be  most unwelcome. If it had been me in the Arrow, I would have reported that guy to the FAA. Having the arrogance to assume you know better than the PIC and forcing your unsolicited help on someone IS a dangerous attitude in my humble opinion.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, ziggysanchez said:

I agree. In this situation no help was needed. I thought I said that.

 

It reads to me like you are justifying the Cirrus pilot’s interference because he didn’t and couldn’t know that the Arrow was managing the situation appropriately. While it’s true he couldn’t have known, that’s not a reason to do any of the things that he did. There is no evidence that this self proclaimed “ace of the base” gave good advice and it could indeed be argued that his interference put the Arrow in the position of almost landing long. To then take an interview with the local news affiliate and give his opinion that the Arrow needed his help and that it was a team effort is beyond egotistical. It would be smart money to bet that the Cirrus pilot sent his own footage to the news affiliate to facilitate the story for which he was interviewed. The guy gives me the douche chills...

Edited June 30, 2019 by Shadrach

[ziggysanchez]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

I think what @ziggysanchez has missed is that the intervention this guy performed was NOT helpful and possibly harmful

I didn't miss that. As a matter of fact I stated that his intervention was unnecessary and also turned out not to be harmful.

 

41 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It reads to me like you are justifying the Cirrus pilot’s interference because he didn’t and couldn’t know that the Arrow was managing the situation appropriately. While it’s true he couldn’t have known, that’s not a reason to do any of the things that he did. There is no evidence that this self proclaimed “ace of the base” gave good advice and it could indeed be argued that his interference put the Arrow in the position of almost landing long. To then take an interview with the local news affiliate and give his opinion that the Arrow needed his help and that it was a team effort. It would be smart money to bet that the Cirrus pilot sent his own footage to the news affiliate to facilitate the story for which he was interviewed. The guy gives me the douche chills...

Everything you've addressed in your post with the exception of what I bolded and underlined has nothing to do with the point of my post or what I was communicating. As far as justifying I did nothing of the sort. Just because I haven't joined the lynch mob doesn't mean I'm justifying anything or anyone.

[ilovecornfields]

“I think the Cirrus pilots actions were probably unnecessary, but there was no way for the tower or the Cirrus driver to know for sure by just listening on the radio. In my opinion the Cirrus pilot put himself in a good position far enough behind and to the right of the Arrow to not be a distraction. The advice he gave was minimal, brief and good advice for energy management”

31 minutes ago, ziggysanchez said:

 As far as justifying I did nothing of the sort. Just because I haven't joined the lynch mob doesn't mean I'm justifying anything or anyone.

What you wrote above certainly sounds like a justification to me. Sounds like you thought that there was “no way...to know for sure just by listening on the ground” and therefore required him to launch and that his advice was “minimal, brief and good advice for energy management.”

I’m sorry,  but I disagree. I think he had no business doing his uninvited and illegal intercept, gave POOR advice for energy management (the pilot had too MUCH energy and said so, in which case retracting the gear and flaps is the WRONG advice) and that his advice was not minimal and brief,  but unhelpful, distracting and intrusive. 

I think it’s ok to disagree. I think I have just been spoiled because I’ve flown with much better instructors than this guy (with respect to attitude, experience and judgement) and to see someone turning something like this into a publicity stunt to promote his $1k BFRs just makes me sick.

[ZuluZulu]

This opens up an exciting new business for him.  For just $2,000/hr, he will closely follow all of your flights in trail and provide real-time critiques, telling you exactly what you’re doing wrong and what you should be doing instead.  Visit YourFlyingShadow.com now!

[ziggysanchez]

26 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

What you wrote above certainly sounds like a justification to me.

Once again you're wrong. I'm pretty sure as the one who authored the post you were referring to I know my intent and later when I stated clearly in my post that I would neither condone or condemn the Cirrus pilot seems pretty clear to me. Again, you have missed the whole point of my post which doesn't surprise me much.

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, ziggysanchez said:

Once again you're wrong. I'm pretty sure as the one who authored the post you were referring to I know my intent and later when I stated clearly in my post that I would neither condone or condemn the Cirrus pilot seems pretty clear to me. Again, you have missed the whole point of my post which doesn't surprise me much.

You are correct. I have no idea what you were thinking when you wrote that post, what your point was or why you posted it.

It seemed to me that you were trying to provide justification for that narcissistic a$$hat’s self-promotion at the expense of another pilot and to me, that is unjustifiable.

My apologies for misinterpreting your intent. Hopefully, we can get past this.

[ziggysanchez]

21 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

You are correct. I have no idea what you were thinking when you wrote that post, what your point was or why you posted it.

It seemed to me that you were trying to provide justification for that narcissistic a$$hat’s self-promotion at the expense of another pilot and to me, that is unjustifiable.

My apologies for misinterpreting your intent. Hopefully, we can get past this.

Hopefully that made you feel better. 

[RLCarter]

A lot of you are saying cleaning up the plane was the WRONG thing to do and that the Arrow Driver was in good shape to make the runway which is true but what your not taking into account is that he is flying a crippled ship that has no throttle response. There is no way to know what is causing the problem and/or if the engine is going to fail completely, so what is better, coming up short, trying to stretch your glide or running off the end of the runway at minimal speed. As far as the Arrow driving being calm, listen very close to the recording again, several of his transmissions are not someone that has things under control. Most of the comments on this is more self centered than your claiming the Cirrus Drive is. Amazing how you can Monday morning quarterback this when in reality you don't true know until you are in that situation. 

[Seymour]

 

50 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

Amazing how you can Monday morning quarterback this when in reality you don't true know until you are in that situation. 

Also attempting to stay out of the fray but need to add my personal perspective.    I'm in that situation every time I'm in the pattern.

I believe in a "sterile cockpit" on takeoffs and landings and request passengers to remain silent and provide input only when necessary for safe flight.  On my passenger briefing card, I provide one word examples of acceptable help like "Gear?"  or "Traffic?"  or "Wildlife?" because I appreciate the extra eyes.   That way I can hear the Tower and use my limited cranial resources for flying the plane.   In my aircraft, I have the ability to mute the passengers for focus if they don't comply.   

This extends to my CFI making helpful suggestions on my landings.   No unnecessary talking while I'm still on the runway; I need my focus and the comments can wait until I'm available.

So to me, the un-requested 'advice' would be a (possibly dangerous) distraction and one I can't just mute.   I don't need to be talking and answering questions about MAP and airspeed from anyone unless there is an issue.   Shut up, I'm flying my plane.

[RLCarter]

25 minutes ago, Seymour said:

 I don't need to be talking and answering questions about MAP and airspeed from anyone unless there is an issue.   Shut up, I'm flying my plane.

But there was an issue, low power and not responding to throttle 

[ilovecornfields]

2 hours ago, RLCarter said:

But there was an issue, low power and not responding to throttle 

But he also clearly stated that he was high and fast and wanted to get down...

[bradp]

Let’s do a thought experiment.  

Cirrus guy also does TBM transition training.  Let’s say that he’s at BDL and there’s a CRJ on downwind with a (oh I dunno) - trim issue.  Cirrus guy hops in a TBM and follows the CRJ in close formation giving unsolicited advice to the crew with 49 pax aboard followed by a low pass off the right wing.

Let’s do this very scenario except Cirrus guy is flying a drone instead of a cirrus and has a handheld on tower frequency.  

Both of these scenarios would have some visit from law enforcement to Cirrus guy for interfering with a flight.  Somehow the actual scenario did not.  Overall it alludes to the lack of professionalism from the cirrus guy and the over familiarity of ATC that resulted in an effective loss of separation.  

In the above scenarios there would be literally nobody (almost nobody here anyway) that would be supportive of Cirrus guy’s actions.  The assumption is that the pilot must have been some amateur who needed to be walked down sweaty Ted Stryker-style and couldn’t work through his troubleshooting and emergency plan.  The one piece of advice that could have been helpful and only would have required use of a radio would have been for the Arrow pilot to use mixture to retard power once he had the field made.  Who knows he could have used that technique in the actual scenario and we’d never know about it on the YouTube’s. 

Hope Cirrus guy filed his ASRS/NASA form- he’s going to need it. 

[Raptor05121]

7 hours ago, RLCarter said:

But there was an issue, low power and not responding to throttle 

I don't see how a cable break in the firewall justifies an emergency takeoff and impromptu, and illegal, formation from someone and being hassled about gear and flaps when it wasn't asked for. Aviate. Navigate. Communicate. Arrow pilot was 100% on the first part. Cirrus pilot was pulling some of that processing power to the communicate part for unnecessary reasons.

Cirrus driver is akin to the people on local Facebook groups that scan 9-1-1 radios and follow cops to calls/pursuits/etc or are first on scene to accidents just to have some form of validation when on social media that they were somehow "involved" to alleviate the situation.

[kpaul]

I can't remember is this was brought up or not,  however:

FAR 91.111

Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in formation flight.

 

How did Mr. Cirrus possibly meet the second requirement?  Since this was on his "instructor" YouTube, did he have a student with him, who essentially became a passenger for hire, because he was not giving any instruction, yet the hobbs was running.

 

I want to hear 3 things from my wing man "2" - "lead, you're on fire" and "I'll buy the first round" (cleaned up the third one to be politically correct)

I fly aircraft in formation for a living and there are only a few very specific times that we will engage in impromptu formation.  All of them are emergencies and all of them require initiation by the distressed aircraft.  We all carry an inflight guide and there is a specific page that discusses how to work out a rejoin.  In addition if it is with one of the other types of aircraft assigned at the base, we have procedures for dissimilar aircraft join ups.

Military aircraft and ATC have a way of communicating the aircrafts wiliness to have another aircraft rejoin.  If both aircraft don't declare MARSA (Military Authority Assumes Responsibility for Separation of Aircraft) then ATC is responsible for normal seperation.  

[ilovecornfields]

4 hours ago, bradp said:

Hope Cirrus guy filed his ASRS/NASA form- he’s going to need it. 

NASA report doesn’t protect you if you’re intentionally being a d-bag. Only for inadvertent violations.

Enforcement Restrictions. The FAA considers the filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. subtitle VII or the 14 CFR to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if: 

• The violation was inadvertent and not deliberate

[thinwing]

I must be a paranoid ,suspicious observer.But after watching this I’m thinking “publicly stunt”!Both pilots in on it,camera ready to roll,no actual declaration of emergency to avoid pesky FAA report.The whole thing smacks of internet utube channel hero.Stricken Pilot with “throttle  issue “quickly disappears so as not to talk to press while hero pilot is all over it.Gives the stricken pilot ride home while paying him the 200 bucks for his part in this show.The only unplanned result ,was all the negative comments on hero pilots ancestry resulting in his pulling the video that was ment to insure his fame

[bob865]

30 minutes ago, thinwing said:

I must be a paranoid ,suspicious observer.But after watching this I’m thinking “publicly stunt”!Both pilots in on it,camera ready to roll,no actual declaration of emergency to avoid pesky FAA report.The whole thing smacks of internet utube channel hero.Stricken Pilot with “throttle  issue “quickly disappears so as not to talk to press while hero pilot is all over it.Gives the stricken pilot ride home while paying him the 200 bucks for his part in this show.The only unplanned result ,was all the negative comments on hero pilots ancestry resulting in his pulling the video that was ment to insure his fame

Ya know, I might be starting to believe you.  The whole internet social justice warrior stuff annoys me, so I tend to not get into people's business becuase I can't and don't know the whole story and err on the side that their decisions are warranted.  You can see my prior post about this earlier.  However, after I listened to the whole communication exchange from his first call to tower, it all does seem odd.  I did look for his comm with approach.  You would think his call to tower would not be the first indication of trouble.  I couldn't find it, though admittedly I was working on other stuff while listening and probably missed it.  I also make the assumtion he was talking to approach since you can see his track in flightaware so he had to have been on at least flight following if not a full IFR flight plan.

[whiskytango]

One of the causes of gear-up landings is distractions in the traffic pattern.  I would hate to have a gear-up landing because someone else was telling me (unsolicited) to raise the gear after I had it down, and then both of us forget that the gear is up.  It turns a nothingburger landing into a $40,000 IRAN.

[DXB]

On 6/28/2019 at 9:23 PM, AlexLev said:

I also hate the guys on UNICOM who tell you anything but the wind. I remember landing in Vermont once and the UNICOM guy was basically telling me not to land the runway I was landing at because of a 20knot crosswind. When you're flying, you can make all the decisions you want. Unsolicited advice, unless it's something like hey dummy, your gear is up...isn't welcome.

I think a take-way is that telling another pilot what to do is fraught with risk. Succinctly making someone aware of a potential issue in a non-confrontational way can be a courtesy, but even that doesn't work out for the better sometimes.  "Mooney just to make sure you're aware, I think there's a 20kt x-wind on that runway" might have been fine to say. Likewise, "Arrow just making sure you're aware your gear is down, in case you want to reduce drag at this point" might have been fine in this scenario.  Even then, depending on the person you're talking to and their task saturation, one may cause more distraction than benefit. The other day I landed long on a shortish runway after some jolting shear on short final.  I simply told the 172 on downwind that I encountered strong shear on short final and landed with a tailwind. He probably was a little frazzled by the strong gusts already and sounded genuinely irritated when he came back with "I'm not changing runways!" .  I wasn't telling him what to do or expecting any response - yet I probably caused some distraction to someone who was already struggling a little and felt badly about it.  

Edited June 30, 2019 by DXB

[chrixxer]

Anecdote. I was in a similar situation to the Arrow; I had partial power after an engine out and was direct to the nearest runway, which happened to be a naval air station.

Sitting right seat was a friend of mine, who happens to have about double my flight time and some type ratings - oh, and who just happens to be a CFI and tower controller.

He said two things to me that were not a result of my asking for information (e.g., winds):

• “The runway is setup like an aircraft carrier, the first thousand feet has arrestor cables.”

• “We’re really high.”

We were about 2000’ AGL as we approached the airport environment. Like the Arrow pilot, I wasn’t going to touch a power control until we had the field well and truly made. I knew my plane reasonably well (I’d only had the F a couple of months, but it wasn’t that dissimilar to my old M20E, and I could parallel park that thing on a dark city street... ). When we were good I dirtied it up, pulled power, and slipped it down at like 100 mph. Floated a bit but got it stopped (with some student pilot grade flattening of a bit of rubber - flew on those tires another few months) within the 3500’ I had to work with (more arrestor cables on the other end of the runway).

Experienced CFI in the plane next to me, his ass on the line just as much as mine, and he did exactly what was needed: Basically nothing. He knew I knew how to fly the plane, he knew he’d just be a distraction. He worked the radios and gave me necessary information when I needed it, and otherwise STFU.

And then we flew back to Torrance in a friend’s Cirrus, and drank.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bradp]

59 minutes ago, whiskytango said:

One of the causes of gear-up landings is distractions in the traffic pattern.  I would hate to have a gear-up landing because someone else was telling me (unsolicited) to raise the gear after I had it down, and then both of us forget that the gear is up.  It turns a nothingburger landing into a $40,000 IRAN.

Cirrus pilots don’t have to worry about that 

[chrixxer]

4 minutes ago, DXB said:

"Archer just making sure you're aware your gear is down, in case you want to reduce drag at this point"

I kinda feel like that would be a worse-than-worthless radio call that would just confuse the pilot...

[chrixxer]

2 minutes ago, bradp said:

Cirrus pilots don’t have to worry about that 

SR20/22 drivers can land gear up too, it just requires more effort. Other Cirrus pilots (VK-30, SF50) definitely have to worry about gear position.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, chrixxer said:

I kinda feel like that would be a worse-than-worthless radio call that would just confuse the pilot...

point well taken  and post edited accordingly

Edited June 30, 2019 by DXB