That dangerous pilot on your field

[ilovecornfields]

Almost got hit twice today. Flew to SBA and was doing pattern work in a 172 and tower told me to go around on short final to 15R. Apparently the guy on the VOR 25 approach decided to go around on short final for no clear reason and flew right over the top of us. Then on the way home a Mooney missed out of SMX and started flying his own impromptu missed approach procedure which seemed to involve random headings and altitudes. ATC has to issue an immediate turn for me and I saw he was within 400’ on the ADS-B. He then got a short lecture on published missed approach procedures.

A friend of mine flew to Catalina today for the fly-in and had someone cut him off on his VOR approach to minimums. Good times.

Be careful out there. Apparently it’s not just one guy! 

[kpaul]

58 minutes ago, N6018Q said:

How do you plan your fuel for flights with that GS?

After reading some of the anecdotes above, maybe I overreacted to a pilot at the airfield I'm temporarily based out of. He bought a V tail Bo without ever taking his first lesson. Went down to a flight school in the DFW area and came back in two weeks with his PPL. Another week and he had the endorsements required to fly his plane solo. Impressive, right?

We talked a few times over the next month and he mentioned a couple of times that he'd like for us to fly together in each of our planes. I gently put him off until he could get some more experience.

One month after he started flying his plane, my wife and I had just returned from a trip to Pueblo, on which I had taken pics and vids of three F-18's landing just after us. I saw him at his hanger and was showing him the pics when he mentioned he had some interesting ones also. The first vid he showed me was of all the loose items in his plane floating at eye level. Ok, I don't do that but maybe not particularly unsafe. Second vid- flying over a lake with his gear down and touching the tops of the waves (probably about 4" ripples actually). That was the point that I mentally made a note that I would never get in a plane with him. The third vid was of him performing an aileron roll in a Cessna. He said, "Your Mooney will do that!" Not as long as it belongs to me.

Hopefully Darwin takes care of him while solo and in an unpopulated area.

Zero Gs is not good for oil systems.

Waterskiing...hope he knows to stand on the brakes.  That one could end badly and in a hurry.

A barrel roll, if done correctly, is a constant 1G maneuver,  Any plane will do one with the right entry speed and altitude.  I remember a 707 doing one in San Fran.  Bob Hover made a career doing it while pouring iced tea.  Probably best done by trained and experienced pilots.

Good choice never flying with that guy. 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, N6018Q said:

How do you plan your fuel for flights with that GS?

After reading some of the anecdotes above, maybe I overreacted to a pilot at the airfield I'm temporarily based out of. He bought a V tail Bo without ever taking his first lesson. Went down to a flight school in the DFW area and came back in two weeks with his PPL. Another week and he had the endorsements required to fly his plane solo. Impressive, right?

We talked a few times over the next month and he mentioned a couple of times that he'd like for us to fly together in each of our planes. I gently put him off until he could get some more experience.

One month after he started flying his plane, my wife and I had just returned from a trip to Pueblo, on which I had taken pics and vids of three F-18's landing just after us. I saw him at his hanger and was showing him the pics when he mentioned he had some interesting ones also. The first vid he showed me was of all the loose items in his plane floating at eye level. Ok, I don't do that but maybe not particularly unsafe. Second vid- flying over a lake with his gear down and touching the tops of the waves (probably about 4" ripples actually). That was the point that I mentally made a note that I would never get in a plane with him. The third vid was of him performing an aileron roll in a Cessna. He said, "Your Mooney will do that!" Not as long as it belongs to me.

Egads 

[Austintatious]

5 hours ago, N6018Q said:

How do you plan your fuel for flights with that GS?

After reading some of the anecdotes above, maybe I overreacted to a pilot at the airfield I'm temporarily based out of. He bought a V tail Bo without ever taking his first lesson. Went down to a flight school in the DFW area and came back in two weeks with his PPL. Another week and he had the endorsements required to fly his plane solo. Impressive, right?

We talked a few times over the next month and he mentioned a couple of times that he'd like for us to fly together in each of our planes. I gently put him off until he could get some more experience.

One month after he started flying his plane, my wife and I had just returned from a trip to Pueblo, on which I had taken pics and vids of three F-18's landing just after us. I saw him at his hanger and was showing him the pics when he mentioned he had some interesting ones also. The first vid he showed me was of all the loose items in his plane floating at eye level. Ok, I don't do that but maybe not particularly unsafe. Second vid- flying over a lake with his gear down and touching the tops of the waves (probably about 4" ripples actually). That was the point that I mentally made a note that I would never get in a plane with him. The third vid was of him performing an aileron roll in a Cessna. He said, "Your Mooney will do that!" Not as long as it belongs to me.

Ehh, the waterskiing one is the most egregious of all that... especially if he had a passenger... people have been violated for doing that with a passenger.  Careless/Reckless operation of aircraft.

Yea, the Bo aint approved for aerobatic use and Ill bet he didn't have a chute on.  Not the smartest thing to do.  I think we have all done stupid things to one degree or another at some point...hopefully that guy grows out of that behavior quickly.

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t have a lot of experience with the western mountains...but general rule is that winds >20knots results in turbulence. What kind of turbulence do you get with 40-45 knots?


Tom

Where is this written? I’ve had >40kts on the tail many times in smooth air during the fall months. I will admit that the 246kt screen shot that I trot out from time to time was not a very smooth day.

[amillet]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t have a lot of experience with the western mountains...but general rule is that winds >20knots results in turbulence. What kind of turbulence do you get with 40-45 knots?


Tom

I have found that to be true when flying the downwind side of the Sierra Nevada Range

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I've certainly had 40 knot winds in the 9-12k altitude range.  Around here in the Willamette valley, the coastal hills block a lot of the wind below 4-5000' MSL, then all of a sudden your heading off in a different direction because of the wind.  You hear the occasional story about C150's having a GS of zero, so you figure you can find 50-70 knot winds at C150 altitudes...

I have flown a 150 in “hover” but not at full throttle.  its really not that big of a deal on a windy day with a light weight pilot (I was about 165 in those days) and 12gals on board. The plane would fly at <40kias indicated with the power on.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Shadrach

[Hank]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t have a lot of experience with the western mountains...but general rule is that winds >20knots results in turbulence. What kind of turbulence do you get with 40-45 knots?


Tom

I've had much higher winds in the Appalachians, but very smooth flying. Left KFAY westbound at 4000msl, making 115 knots; at KGSP i had to climb, first to 9000 then 10,000msl, where groundspeed dropped to 68 knots headed to KTYS. Ince clear, I descended to 6000 msl to KLEX, and hit about 105 knots. When I turned eastbound and descended for KHTS, speeds were awesome but I don't remember them, just the awful low speeds.

Cruising at 145-148 KTAS while making 68 knots is an 80 knot headwind, over the roughest, highest terrain east of The River, but smooth. The weather you find is what's there . . . . .

[flyingcheesehead]

11 hours ago, bob865 said:

This is exactly my point about the speed!  I fully understand airspeed, groudspeed, and winds aloft and their correlation.  I've personally never seen winds aloft about about 30kts in the normal altitude range for a Cherokee 140 on a VFR day.  Can it happen?  Yes.  Have I seen it? No.  The only time I've seen winds aloft with those kinds of speeds, it was IFR and even with the rating, in my opinion, you would have been foolish/suicidal to try it out.  That was my point in asking.  Compared to most on this forum, I'm very very very Junior.  Maybe it happens, and maybe it happens more often than I'm aware. 

It's not common, but if I've seen 70ish knots twice in my first couple thousand hours, it's not the rarest phenomenon either. And I've had a few more over 50 knots.

To get a Cherokee 140 with a 170mph/148 KIAS Vne to 181 GS at 5500 feet without going over Vne wouldn't be that hard. 148 KIAS at 5500 feet is 164 KTAS, so you'd only need a 17-knot tailwind if you were on the red line. Make it a not-so-rare 30-knot wind and you don't need to even get close to Vne.

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Where is this written? I’ve had >40kts on the tail many times in smooth air during the fall months. I will admit that the 246kt screen shot that I trot out from time to time was not a very smooth day.

I've seen the 20 knot rule referenced by people along the front range, where that air is getting stirred up.

Here in the flat Midwest, it's pretty much the opposite. Calm winds, especially this time of year, mean bumps because the thermals will go up high. Throw 30 knots aloft at it, and it breaks up the thermals and you get a much smoother ride.

This is why I love flying - There's always something new to learn. And cross-country flying - Not 50nm, but literally crossing large portions of the country - is the best learning flying you can get without a CFI aboard, because you get into these different situations and learn from them.

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

It's not common, but if I've seen 70ish knots twice in my first couple thousand hours, it's not the rarest phenomenon either. And I've had a few more over 50 knots.

To get a Cherokee 140 with a 170mph/148 KIAS Vne to 181 GS at 5500 feet without going over Vne wouldn't be that hard. 148 KIAS at 5500 feet is 164 KTAS, so you'd only need a 17-knot tailwind if you were on the red line. Make it a not-so-rare 30-knot wind and you don't need to even get close to Vne.

I've seen the 20 knot rule referenced by people along the front range, where that air is getting stirred up.

Here in the flat Midwest, it's pretty much the opposite. Calm winds, especially this time of year, mean bumps because the thermals will go up high. Throw 30 knots aloft at it, and it breaks up the thermals and you get a much smoother ride.

This is why I love flying - There's always something new to learn. And cross-country flying - Not 50nm, but literally crossing large portions of the country - is the best learning flying you can get without a CFI aboard, because you get into these different situations and learn from them.

Yup, my training days were spent in NW Indiana. In late summer the bumps in that part of the country on a calm day could get pretty bad. Having a breeze was preferable. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Shadrach

[thinwing]

18 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Almost got hit twice today. Flew to SBA and was doing pattern work in a 172 and tower told me to go around on short final to 15R. Apparently the guy on the VOR 25 approach decided to go around on short final for no clear reason and flew right over the top of us. Then on the way home a Mooney missed out of SMX and started flying his own impromptu missed approach procedure which seemed to involve random headings and altitudes. ATC has to issue an immediate turn for me and I saw he was within 400’ on the ADS-B. He then got a short lecture on published missed approach procedures.

A friend of mine flew to Catalina today for the fly-in and had someone cut him off on his VOR approach to minimums. Good times.

Be careful out there. Apparently it’s not just one guy! 

Hi there..you were on shortfinal for 15 l or R he was cleared by Santa Barbara apr for Vor/gps rny 25 approach with instructions to execute the missed...that is a left turn at 900 passing right over rny 15.That is the reason for his go arround...if he had continued to landing rny 25 (SBA preferred rny)you two would have met at the intersection!That sounds like an approach/ tower screw up

Edited May 26, 2019 by thinwing

[ilovecornfields]

2 hours ago, thinwing said:

Hi there..you were on shortfinal for 15 l or R he was cleared by Santa Barbara apr for Vor/gps rny 25 approach with instructions to execute the missed...that is a left turn at 900 passing right over rny 15.That is the reason for his go arround...if he had continued to landing rny 25 (SBA preferred rny)you two would have met at the intersection!That sounds like an approach/ tower screw up

He wasn’t supposed to do a low approach. Don’t know why he did a go around because the spacing was fine. It actually would have worked out better if tower didn’t have me do a go around because then I would have passed way under him. As it was, his go around and my go around almost intersected. If he had landed, he would have been clear of 15 by the time I landed. It’s nice to know you understand the situation I was in better than I do...

[kpaul]

2 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

He wasn’t supposed to do a low approach. Don’t know why he did a go around because the spacing was fine. It actually would have worked out better if tower didn’t have me do a go around because then I would have passed way under him. As it was, his go around and my go around almost intersected. If he had landed, he would have been clear of 15 by the time I landed. It’s nice to know you understand the situation I was in better than I do...

Last time I checked, any pilot can go around out of any landing for any reason.  And since you were not in his plane it is as much speculation on your part as anyone else. 

It is too bad that the controllers did not do a better job with separation.  Flying practice approaches with VFR traffic often causes conflicts.  We do practice approaches and VFR patterns at fields that  have letters of agreement with the approach and towers.  Even with this there are often times I have had to spin 360s and go around offset of the runway to avoid conflicts.

[thinwing]

4 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

He wasn’t supposed to do a low approach. Don’t know why he did a go around because the spacing was fine. It actually would have worked out better if tower didn’t have me do a go around because then I would have passed way under him. As it was, his go around and my go around almost intersected. If he had landed, he would have been clear of 15 by the time I landed. It’s nice to know you understand the situation I was in better than I do...

So your saying he was cleared to land runway 25 and you were also cleared to land runway 15.Ive flown into Santa Barbara more times than I can count and that sounds very unusual.Typically Atis will state which runway is in use...its usually 25 in the case or Santa Barbara.That doesn’t mean tower won’t approve someone wishing to use xwind runway for practice but that apparently set up a conflict.Im guessing he switched over from approach to tower ,either saw or heard you approaching an intercepting runway and initiated a go arround.Point is I don’t think his actions were to blame in this case.I think I would have done the same thing while wondering WTF. 

[ilovecornfields]

Sounds like everyone who wasn’t there knows what was going on better than I do so I’ll stay out of it. That being said, it’s not unusual for them to use 7/25 for the “big boys” and 15 L/R for VFR traffic. To anyone familiar with the airport that would not be considered unusual. The learning point for me was that doing an unplanned go-around affects other people as well. I agree, if you’re in doubt go around but I had not previously considered how my go around would affect others. Winds were calm, field was VFR.