Rustler Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 The facts: 1980 M20 J, IO360 A3B6D, 1870 hrs TTAF/E, never topped The proposal: Purchase an IO360 A3B6, freshly overhauled by Western Skyways. I don't know how many hours on this engine's case. New ECI nickeled cylinders. Usual accessories, my SkyTech starter. The questions: 1) What are folks' experiences with Western Skyways? 2) Are there any problems upgrading the engine to the true dual-mag A3B6? 3) Are there any suggestions for making this an easy transition? [i sure will save down time by having the new engine delivered before taking out the old one, I think.] 4) Any ideas in general? Thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 If you have an engine with only 1900 hours and no problems I sure would be looking at getting it overhauled instead of trading it off for something that you don't have any history on. Find a shop that works with an engine overhauler and combine the engine work with an annual. Your downtime will be reduced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N57039 Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I didn't think ECI made angle head cylinders for the Lyc IO360A3B6D??? I've heard the change to the dual mag set up was 3 to 4 K when done with an overhaul. I'd rather just properly overhaul the dual Bendix mag every 500 hours than do the conversion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airkraft Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Western Skyways overhauled our IO-360A1A about a year ago. They were a pleasure to deal with and the engine runs beautifully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I was quoted $1952 difference for a FREM engine. Dual vs. single magnetos. This was factory charge for different cores. I decided to stay with the dual magneto. Properly maintained, they are no more or less safe than the single units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustler Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Western Skyways, so far, has been a pleasure to deal with. Very straight forward, thoughtful, and quite forthcoming with reasons for recommendations. They also get top ratings from All American Aircraft, from whom I purchased the airplane. There is no core-differential charge. The overhaul would be the same with my A3B6D as with their A3B6. The up charge for new cylinders (Lycomings or ECIs) vs. remanufactured ECIs with new barrels is $1800. I get my choice of Slicks or Bendix; my A&P likes Bendix. At this juncture, I'm pretty much convinced that the A3B6 is the way to go, with Bendix induction mags, not the shower of sparks. ECI cylinders. I priced Lycoming factory rebuilds, the "0" hour ones, and that tab came to around $31,000 total. The Western Skyways ends up in the neighborhood of $22K. Big difference. Thanks to airkraft for the specific information. It coincides with several others I've discussed this with. Thanks to all for the advice and information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustler Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Jim-- The benefit I see to the EMI cylinders is the nickel-alloy bore treatment. When the cylinder walls are treated, you never have any rust form there. It will still form other places, but not on the cylinder walls, a usual place to find it if one hasn't used the engine for prolonged periods.I also have an A&P friend who works at their destruction lab in New Braunfels, TX, and I have been impressed by the thoroughness of their testing. I have no problems with Lycoming, either. Both are good cylinders and probably of equal quality. Here's a link to what ECI says: http://www.eci.aero/pages/services_advantage.aspx Another consideration, I think, is resale. Potential buyers would usually be more comfortable with the ECIs and the nickel process than plain jugs, whether or not the reasoning is sound. Who knows, I just might have to move up to a Bravo or an Encore in a couple years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 one more thing to consider. ALL factory engines now come with roller tappets. If you get the FREM it will have roller tappets. If you get a field overhaul it will not have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustler Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Quote: Cruiser one more thing to consider. ALL factory engines now come with roller tappets. If you get the FREM it will have roller tappets. If you get a field overhaul it will not have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple8s Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 I didnt look at it TOO closely since I dont happen to have ECI cylinders but I recieved something in the mail regarding cracks and some type of action to take if I did have ECI cylinders. Dual mag? I have seen a 201 that was bellied in and tore all to heck and the dual mag was hanging from the back of the motor (which had been freshly OH) no mag works when it isnt attached to the motor, small flashlight and good preflight does wonders. My bird has many mods but it was that way when I bought it, I just think money better spent is to buy a bird like you want and fly the crap out of it. I have a long wat till TBO but when I get tired of what I have I'll trade up or maybe down but I just dont see dumping more money into a bird than you can get out of it. I'd rather trade lots of deals out there right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple8s Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 ECI cylinder info http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/c1ca8c956328150c862574c5005702bd!OpenDocument&ExpandSection=-4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N57039 Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Somebody correct me please. The original post was about an IO360A3B6 engine with ECI cylinders. I am certain than the IO360A3B6 has angle valve cylinders. I am certain that ECI at this time does not make an angle valve cylinder. I am certain that the ECI cylinder AD action only has to do with parallel valve cylinders (from the Summary of the FAA directive: "The FAA is adopting a new airworthiness directive (AD) for Lycoming Engines (formerly Textron Lycoming) models 320, 360, and 540 series, ``Parallel Valve'' reciprocating engines, with certain Engine Components, Inc. (ECi) cylinder assemblies, part number (P/N) AEL65102 series ``Titan'', installed. ") If you have a Mooney with an IO360A3B6 Lycoming you can't have ECI cylinders. You can't have the FAA AD action problem on your cylinders. Western Skyways can't be supplying what they offered the OP. What am I missing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustler Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Quote: N57039 . . . .<snip> If you have a Mooney with an IO360A3B6 Lycoming you can't have ECI cylinders. You can't have the FAA AD action problem on your cylinders. Western Skyways can't be supplying what they offered the OP. What am I missing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple8s Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 I am here to learn what I can, lots of experience on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac58 Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 A Lycoming rep (and she was cute too might I add) was poking around our hangars in Kona a few months back. She dropped all kinds of brochures about the new engines and such with roller tappets, etc. She said they were seeing upwards of 15 horsepower increase with this modification but the results were not "official" yet. Anyone else find truth in this? If so, perhaps 15-20 ponies would help justify the 9 AMU? Anyone know what kind of KTAS boost one might see on a J model with another 15HP? Perhaps with this and a LowPresti cowling I could actually get the 172 KTAS that Mooney claimed the M20J 201 could do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 I had a FREM w/roller tappets installed last year in my 84 M20J. I don't have any speed checks from before the exchange. I did do a brief run 25x2500 full rich with the new engine at 1500 MSL and got 168kts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 They also just certified the IO-390-A1B6D at 210 HP officially, with the roller tappets. It will be really interesting to see how that does on an M20J airframe, or an E/F for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac58 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Quote: Cruiser I had a FREM w/roller tappets installed last year in my 84 M20J. I don't have any speed checks from before the exchange. I did do a brief run 25x2500 full rich with the new engine at 1500 MSL and got 168kts. That is nice. I really never see better than 156 KTAS. Got to admit it is pretty slow and no where near 201 MPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Quote: mooniac58 A Lycoming rep (and she was cute too might I add) was poking around our hangars in Kona a few months back. She dropped all kinds of brochures about the new engines and such with roller tappets, etc. She said they were seeing upwards of 15 horsepower increase with this modification but the results were not "official" yet. Anyone else find truth in this? If so, perhaps 15-20 ponies would help justify the 9 AMU? Anyone know what kind of KTAS boost one might see on a J model with another 15HP? Perhaps with this and a LowPresti cowling I could actually get the 172 KTAS that Mooney claimed the M20J 201 could do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Quote: JimR Very interesting, Gary. Thanks for the update. I'm sure that that STC will generate a lot of interest. If speed increases with the cube root of power, however, I wouldn't expect to see an awful lot of a speed gain from the extra 10 horse power. The rate of climb increase will probably be more significant than the speed gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustler Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Quote: mooniac58 Perhaps with this and a LowPresti cowling I could actually get the 172 KTAS that Mooney claimed the M20J 201 could do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustler Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 The order is in and the down payment made. Engine: IO360 A3B6 Mags: Bendix Pistons: Lycoming rebarreled and nickeled by ECI Should take 4-5 weeks; I'm not in any great hurry but am getting excited. We're also going to install an AirWolf wet vacuum pump and their associated oil separator. I had one on my former airplane and found it to be a reliable piece of quality equipment. Additionally, I'll overhaul the oil cooler or purchase a new one. I'm using the SkyTec starter I already have. The issue of the roller tappets was a significant one, but I decided against it for my purposes. The idea that the roller engine will probably be a selling point in the future might well be correct, but my reason for doing this is to have an engine behind which I can fly with comfort and trust at a reasonable price. I think I've done that. Like the rest of you, I've watched the development of the IO390 with great interest but didn't think the wait was worth it, and the price didn't recommend it for 3-5 knots and increased fuel consumption. The LoPresti cowl is a real question. I had one on my Grumman Cheetah and didn't notice any particular speed increase; I did notice improved cooling. Gotta say it looked great. The biggest improvement on the Grumman was the PowerFlow; it significantly improved climb. I do not hear great things about it on the Mooney, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airkraft Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I think you'll do well with Western Skyways. Good decision, in my view. Not to necessarily open a new can of worms, but... I have read that the Power Flow exhaust is very effective on the carburated Mooney's. Little, if any, performance gains on the injected 200 HP Mooney's. I can attest that the PF was worth the money on our flight school C172 (O-320E2D w/ Ly-Con 160 HP STC). Anyone? Thanks in advance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I've been hearing exactly the same thing about the Power Flow. A minimum of 5 kts, and maybe up to 8 kts, on the carburated C's......and zero on the J's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I wonder why they chose to optimize for 11k or whatever high altitude...in my experience the normally aspirated Mooneys are most efficient around 7-9k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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