Tips on Landing a Mooney Bravo?

[Bravoman]

 I have found that in the bravo to really have a nice landing  I have to keep it between 75 and 80 kn on final, and may be a tad slower if lightly loaded.  People talk about mooneys  being tough to land, but for whatever crazy reason I land this thing consistently better than anything else I have ever flown, including my Saratoga.   I always land with full flaps.  Good luck with it, I am sure that you will get it down very soon. Welcome to the community!

 

Regards, Frank

[FlyDave]

One thing that a CFI friend said to me when he experienced me landing my bravo was "Just hold it". I was chasing pitch in the flare and causing a bit of PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation". This one tip helped make my landings much much better.

Airspeed control (~75 KTAS short final) is key. If you're a little fast and don't let the plane settle on its own it you'll hav trouble.

Best of luck!

 

Dave

[M20S Driver]

1 hour ago, FlyDave said:

One thing that a CFI friend said to me when he experienced me landing my bravo was "Just hold it". I was chasing pitch in the flare and causing a bit of PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation". This one tip helped make my landings much much better.

Airspeed control (~75 KTAS short final) is key. If you're a little fast and don't let the plane settle on its own it you'll hav trouble.

Best of luck!

 

Dave

well said Dave.  I land in a 2440 feet runway and follow the above advice.  I also chop the power about 50 feet above the runway for short field approach.  

Don Kaye's Landing DVD is highly recommended here.

[aviatoreb]

8 hours ago, recolimited said:

I just bought an Acclaim this week and am trying to become FRIENDS with it, however the landings are the only conflict that seems to remain.  I did make a 1 notch of flaps landing yesterday inadvertently and it was my BEST LANDING YET!!!  I tried it again after a 2 hour cross country and PRESTO another near greaser.  I'm coming out of a C340 where flying at 100kts down final is SOP and actually prefer the higher speed.  The float and ballooning I was getting when trying to land with full flaps was EXCRUCIATING and certainly made me feel like a student pilot.  I haven't used the speed brakes much yet, but I plan on doing some practice landings today and will see how they affect my 1 notch flap landings.  I think it will be something that I will like and utilize in short field environments.  I am flying into a 3K' strip in the Bahamas on Wednesday, so I need to have this figured out in advance of that mission.  But I plan on winning this battle of wills to make friends with this new beautiful bird, even if I have to do things HER way...  thx for all the good tips & insight found in this space.

Welcome to Mooneys recolimited.  You dug deep to find my old question from 5+ years ago - I have gotten much more used to N10933's flying characteristics since then.  I even trained for and did my commercial in her.

If you are coming from a C340 I bet you are well experienced and you should master your beautiful new acclaim before you know it.

One main rule - if you are a tad fast and try to land anyway, it will bounce.  If you bounce a second time - go around - no matter what - since I have read that a third bounce is a prop strike.  Really these airplanes land nicely if you are on speed, and even if you are a tad fast, just let it float and it will land when its ready.  

Enjoy the Bahamas!

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, recolimited said:

I just bought an Acclaim this week and am trying to become FRIENDS with it, however the landings are the only conflict that seems to remain.  I did make a 1 notch of flaps landing yesterday inadvertently and it was my BEST LANDING YET!!!  I tried it again after a 2 hour cross country and PRESTO another near greaser.  I'm coming out of a C340 where flying at 100kts down final is SOP and actually prefer the higher speed.  The float and ballooning I was getting when trying to land with full flaps was EXCRUCIATING and certainly made me feel like a student pilot.  I haven't used the speed brakes much yet, but I plan on doing some practice landings today and will see how they affect my 1 notch flap landings.  I think it will be something that I will like and utilize in short field environments.  I am flying into a 3K' strip in the Bahamas on Wednesday, so I need to have this figured out in advance of that mission.  But I plan on winning this battle of wills to make friends with this new beautiful bird, even if I have to do things HER way...  thx for all the good tips & insight found in this space.

Your airplane (N562BG) has a history of previous owners coming in too fast on final. No matter what you've flown in the past, humble yourself and fly with a Mooney specific instructor. There are a few on this site. Those that are new to long body Mooneys that haven't received Mooney specific instruction have a high rate of prop strikes. .

 

Transitioning to the Mooney, coming in correctly on final will feel way too slow the first time you do it. But a stabilized approach at proper speed will virtually guarantee a decent landing every time, and occasionally when no one is with you to witness it, a perfect landing.

[Deb]

Mike Elliott is a master CFII who owned a Bravo. He's the "go to" Mooney specific instructor in your area (he lives in Tarpon Springs). He also co-founded the Mooney Summit which he runs at KECP in the beginning of October. His email is mike at aviating.com.

[donkaye]

I've had my Bravo 24 years next month.  In calm conditions 75 kts is the FASTEST you should be coming in at gross weight.  Except in gusty conditions full flaps should be used.  For every 300 pounds that you are under gross take off 5 knots.  If I'm alone with one hour of fuel on board 65 knots should be used.  So for the range of useful loads available on the Bravo, the landing speed will vary between 75 and 65 knots in calm conditions.  When able, confining your slope to 3° will allow a comfortable 8 ft/sec descent rate that will allow a smooth, gentle round out and touchdown.  If you're getting even a "chirp" on touch down you touched down too fast.  When proficient, you should be able to roll the wheels on power off.

Don Kaye, Master Flight Instructor

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, Deb said:

Mike Elliott is a master CFII who owned a Bravo. He's the "go to" Mooney specific instructor in your area (he lives in Tarpon Springs). He also co-founded the Mooney Summit which he runs at KECP in the beginning of October. His email is mike at aviating.com.

Thanks Deb, Chris contacted me prior to purchasing for transition trading, but I was committed to be in Longview, NW Ar, and Memphis in his time frames. We will be getting together in the near future.

 

[Danb]

Mike nice seeing you in Tx, FYI, I'm ok, have a great trip for what's remaining.

[BillC]

7 hours ago, donkaye said:

I've had my Bravo 24 years next month.  In calm conditions 75 kts is the FASTEST you should be coming in at gross weight.  Except in gusty conditions full flaps should be used.  For every 300 pounds that you are under gross take off 5 knots.  If I'm alone with one hour of fuel on board 65 knots should be used.  So for the range of useful loads available on the Bravo, the landing speed will vary between 75 and 65 knots in calm conditions.  When able, confining your slope to 3° will allow a comfortable 8 ft/sec descent rate that will allow a smooth, gentle round out and touchdown.  If you're getting even a "chirp" on touch down you touched down too fast.  When proficient, you should be able to roll the wheels on power off.

Don Kaye, Master Flight Instructor

Don,

. Would you say that works for the Ovation as well?

[donkaye]

24 minutes ago, BillC said:

Don,

. Would you say that works for the Ovation as well?

Absolutely.  Those numbers should be used on all the long body Mooneys.

[Awful_Charlie]

Don is of course the master at this, and has already pointed out that your approach speed needs to vary with weight, but I've also noticed I find it much easier to land when the CofG is towards the rear than when it is at the forward limit

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, Awful_Charlie said:

Don is of course the master at this, and has already pointed out that your approach speed needs to vary with weight, but I've also noticed I find it much easier to land when the CofG is towards the rear than when it is at the forward limit

Something else to pay attention to. Most of my landings are light loads [no baggage and few people], I'll have to notice float vs. load/CG data.

[LANCECASPER]

His airplane N562BG is heavy even when empty - it has TKS & Air Conditioning which must put at it close to 2500 without fuel.  Plus it carries up to 102 gallons of fuel. The max gross weight is 3368, i think.

It is awesome to have both of those options, but with those options on the Acclaim, I'm not sure where that puts CG. It might be a little more challenging until there's some good Mooney Specific training.

(If my math is correct, if the pilot and instructor each weigh 180, the most fuel you could legally land with is 56 gallons. The most you could legally take off with is 84 gallons. That's assuming those two only and no bags.)

[DVA]

20 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

“... the most fuel you could legally land with is 56 gallons. The most you could legally take off with is 84 gallons. ..."

Re: The M202M - The landing weight in the POH 3200# is not a FAA legal limit as is the max gross of 3368# - the landing weight is a cautionary figure only from the manufacturer. That said I am not advocating that it be ignored, but there is a procedure outlined in the POH to use when landing over the approved landing weight.

My Bravo is always forward CG to the nearly the limit when it’s heavy, with the equipment I have installed (TKS, LR tanks)  **on purpose**.  I’ve found that most Bravo drivers are unaware of the Charlie weights (fixed ballast)  that **may** be installed from the factory, and never adjusted OR removed after equipment is added or replaced. Many Bravo’s I’ve seen or read about are far aft CG, because over the years the weight up front has been reduced with the installation of lighter avionics. If you don’t adjust the Charlie weights, you will continue to go aft in the envelope. I say “on purpose” above, because my Bravo had the 19# ballast installed at the factory, and after all the mods over the years, it was unnecessary. I was able to remove it and gained nearly 20# of useful load. It did however alter the CG forward (still within limits) and that changed the flight characteristic of the plane a bit - most evidently on landings. An Aft CG long body will land differently than a fore CG all else considered equal.

Note: You can place the average CG correctly in the envelope by adjusting this ballast weight at station 209.5. So if you are too forward or aft for your liking, go get weighed and adjust ballast (add/remove/change) to get the plane in the envelope per the Maintenance Manual.

Pilots may be surprised how much of a difference this could make in your landing technique and why the advice you get for one plane may not be working for you in yours.

Fly safe!
DVA

 

[donkaye]

13 minutes ago, DVA said:

Re: The M202M - The landing weight in the POH 3200# is not a FAA legal limit as is the max gross of 3368# - the landing weight is a cautionary figure only from the manufacturer.

Under the General Section of the POH my manual says: Maximum CERTIFICATED landing weight: 3,200 pounds.  That sounds like an FAA legal limit to me.  Later in the manual it does describe additional procedures if it is "necessary" to land overweight.  Again overweight is overweight.  Obviously the wing can take 3.8 Gs, which is a lot more than 3,200 pounds.  My understanding is that the problem is with the landing gear structure.  

My recommendation: don't intentionally land over 3,200 pounds on a regular basis.

[DVA]

Just now, donkaye said:

Maximum CERTIFICATED landing weight: 3,200 pounds.  That sounds like an FAA legal limit to me.  Later in the manual it does describe additional procedures if it is "necessary" to land overweight.

Hi Don,

I checked on that very thing at the FSDO. The response, paraphrasing, was: We look only at maximum gross weight from a legal point. If this landing weight was a limitation that the FAA and the manufacturer agreed was critical, the airplane would have been certififed for a max weight of 3200# to account for the fact that it is likely the aircraft would be landed often, over that weight. They went on to say, “we get these questions all the time on a lot of aircraft”. Concluding, “fly by the POH”.

That makes sense to me.

Also, no argument here on following the POH! I just wanted to point out that “legally” may not have been the correct way to describe the limitation.

DVA

[Danb]

I looked in the poh and on pg 1-5 is says certified weight is 3368, I assume looking at the w/b would the weight be 3200 or 3368. I have never landed over 3200. Also the top of the envelope per poh is 3368

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

I looked in the poh and on pg 1-5 is says certified weight is 3368, I assume looking at the w/b would the weight be 3200 or 3368. I have never landed over 3200. Also the top of the envelope per poh is 3368

On the next line it also says that the maximum LANDING weight is 3,200 lbs.

[Danb]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

On the next line it also says that the maximum LANDING weight is 3,200 lbs.

Correct

[carusoam]

Some people have the skill to land very gently.  Others land like a load of bricks.  

It would help to be in the first group while landing heavy....

The O has the same LB weight limitations.  On a long flight fully loaded, it is expected to burn off an hour of fuel prior to the first landing.  Be prepared for the usual....   an open door during rotation... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

On July 17, 2016 at 2:07 AM, donkaye said:

I've had my Bravo 24 years next month.  In calm conditions 75 kts is the FASTEST you should be coming in at gross weight.  Except in gusty conditions full flaps should be used.  For every 300 pounds that you are under gross take off 5 knots.  If I'm alone with one hour of fuel on board 65 knots should be used.  So for the range of useful loads available on the Bravo, the landing speed will vary between 75 and 65 knots in calm conditions.  When able, confining your slope to 3° will allow a comfortable 8 ft/sec descent rate that will allow a smooth, gentle round out and touchdown.  If you're getting even a "chirp" on touch down you touched down too fast.  When proficient, you should be able to roll the wheels on power off.

Don Kaye, Master Flight Instructor

I've been away for a while, but I am so glad to see a post advocating for lower landing speeds.  Many long body owners speak like they're flying a completely different airframe.

"That's nice for your little F model, but my god man don't you realize my R has MGW of 3368lbs?  This is why I must use the approach profile of a Lear 35."  

My hangar neighbor's personal runway minimum was 3500' in their Bravo and that was with recurrent training from flight safety every 6 months... 

[steingar]

I did want to put in a shout out to Mooneyspace members.  Keeping things I read in this hear thread in mind I squeezed out a couple of the best landings in my M20C yet.  Starting to really get it.  Mooneyspace rocks!

[donkaye]

12 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

My hangar neighbor's personal runway minimum was 3500' in their Bravo and that was with recurrent training from flight safety every 6 months... 

The Bravo should EASILY be able to land at an airport like Oceano (L52)  at 2325 feet--and make the first turn off at about half that.  If the above is the case, then Flight Safety needs some competent new Mooney instructors.  Show your friend this post.  The M20 C can be landed at near C 150 speed.

[DVA]

52 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

My hangar neighbor's personal runway minimum was 3500' in their Bravo and that was with recurrent training from flight safety every 6 months... 

You should be able to land ... twice ... on that length runway.

Instead of Flight Safety (which I had a great experience at for Cessna Twin training), have your friend start by getting Don Kaye’s video (here) and spend a calm evening practicing. I can virtually guarantee that he will have an epiphany. The long body Mooney’s “feel” like they’re too slow on final when your actually flying at the right approach speed, especially if you’re too flat. Great and consistent landings are almost natural when you have both the right speed across the fence AND the right approach angle. If the approach angle is off, then the recommended speeds won’t work well. You need both to win!