It's official I got it back in the air... BUT-

[peevee]

I've never been able to tell the color difference. Maybe I'm color blind. It all looks like smoke to me.

[carusoam]

23 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Agreed.  I am not going airborne.  PROMISE.   my eyes were about a foot outside my head when everything went quiet.     I am going to lean this thing out and I am going to build an adapter that will allow my 5 gas analyzer to read the exhaust.  I am getting this right before it goes up again or Coke/Pepsi can have free aluminum for cans.  It has to be rich black smoke and a 200+ rpm rise.  nothing else makes sense.  My only question is why.   Nothing was touched fuel mixture wise. 

 

23 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

I have already left fairy dust and crackers for them.    And a big arrow that tells them which way to turn it.

These statements are going in opposite directions...

You are stating that you are unsure of what isn't working properly. This is pretty normal for most people...

The follow-up statement makes even me uncomfortable.

It sounds a lot like the mixture hasn't been set up correctly for a long period of time.  Having a hangar fairy try to solve this problem now would be somewhat less than responsible.

 

Taking all the details that you have learned and going to a qualified mechanic may be better.  It is possible that the fuel distribution equipment is worn or broken, or clogged.  Adjusting until you get it right on the ground can work, at least until you are no longer on the ground...

Consider taking what you have learned and follow the path that is least likely to get you into deeper trouble.

Is it time to schedule the next appointment with the mechanic?

Is it time to OH the fuel divider or other fuel distribution equipment?

Does it need to just be cleaned and re-set up?

The plane seems to have been talking to you...

The neighbors have been talking to you...

People on the internet have been talking to you...

What more can you get?

it is not normal to have the engine quit on the ground.

it is not normal to have colored exhaust come out the tail pipe.

it is not normal to twist the mixture knob to prepare for start.

Some people will adjust mixture on the ground, after start, to lessen the chance of fouling a plug, not to keep it running.

leaning on the ground allows for a good run-up...

You may want to follow some advice that you have learned here. Write down your ideas and take them to your mechanic.

 

What is at the end of the runway you usually use?

We have had too many Mooney pilots from here, try to turn back 180°, engine-out...

Please don't repeat that experience...

 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 29, 2017 by carusoam

[EricJ]

19 hours ago, Yetti said:

oops its been awhile since my teen years

 

That was probably a different kind of smoke entirely.  

[cctsurf]

The difficulty is that our original poster is dealing with is that he has 10-100x (maybe 1000x) as much engine experience as many of the A&Peees he's been dealing with.  He runs a diesel shop.  They charged him multiple thousands of dollars to do oil cooler hoses.

Did you notice that he mentioned he HAS a 5-gas analyzer?  That's the perfect piece of equipment for doing an analysis of this problem.  And it ain't cheep...  I'd love to have one.  It's not something that even most mechanics just have sitting around.  Sadly, the adjustments in the airplane are so crude it would be like measuring with a micrometer and cutting with a chain saw...   Yes, he needs to be careful that he gets it right and if there is something that needs to be rebuilt, I'm certain he will.  

However, the incidence in which our mechanics just send things off for overhaul without knowing a thing about them beforehand is ludicrous.  Our friend has the tools and the know-how to diagnose what is going on in his engine, if the hangar fairies can help him make a couple of adjustments, great.  If they can't get it right, then he'll have a far better idea of what is wrong than you or I sitting at our computers diagnosing his problem across the interwebs...  He'll know where the problem is and be able to get it IRANed...

In my estimation, he's coming to us on Mooneyspace to get a direction to look (having not worked on airplanes before he's learning how their systems work) and to vent the fun of bringing an old bird back to life (one he was told by a ppi mechanic was perfect).

[carusoam]

CC,

I'm with you, but...

This is where one professional recognizes the skills he has, and is very well aware of the other skills that are better to get from somebody else.

the coolest thing to have is the ability to talk with your mechanic and discuss exactly what is going on.

the un-coolest thing to have is the feeling you get with the loss of power climbing out at a few hundred feet off the pavement.  

Getting the engine fixed right is going to cost a lot.

Not getting the engine fixed right could cost even more.

The benefit of MS is the ability to share Mooney ideas.  Some ideas are just better than others...

 

One idea I hear around here often...

some People are adamant about not taking a plane into the air that isn't running properly.  Engines don't get better in the air...

Then there are people that don't recognize when there engine isn't running properly.

a few people on MS have offered observations of what wasn't proper about the way this engine was running.

The intention is to help somebody to get their plane fixed properly.  It is not an effort to rain on somebody's parade, or kill off a boyhood dream.

The cost of getting it wrong is just too high.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 30, 2017 by carusoam

[Dream to fly]

18 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

These statements are going in opposite directions...

You are stating that you are unsure of what isn't working properly. This is pretty normal for most people...

The follow-up statement makes even me uncomfortable.

It sounds a lot like the mixture hasn't been set up correctly for a long period of time.  Having a hangar fairy try to solve this problem now would be somewhat less than responsible.

 

Taking all the details that you have learned and going to a qualified mechanic may be better.  It is possible that the fuel distribution equipment is worn or broken, or clogged.  Adjusting until you get it right on the ground can work, at least until you are no longer on the ground...

Consider taking what you have learned and follow the path that is least likely to get you into deeper trouble.

Is it time to schedule the next appointment with the mechanic?

Is it time to OH the fuel divider or other fuel distribution equipment?

Does it need to just be cleaned and re-set up?

The plane seems to have been talking to you...

The neighbors have been talking to you...

People on the internet have been talking to you...

What more can you get?

it is not normal to have the engine quit on the ground.

it is not normal to have colored exhaust come out the tail pipe.

it is not normal to twist the mixture knob to prepare for start.

Some people will adjust mixture on the ground, after start, to lessen the chance of fouling a plug, not to keep it running.

leaning on the ground allows for a good run-up...

You may want to follow some advice that you have learned here. Write down your ideas and take them to your mechanic.

 

What is at the end of the runway you usually use?

We have had too many Mooney pilots from here, try to turn back 180°, engine-out...

Please don't repeat that experience...

 

Best regards,

-a-

Where to start. 

First- I am not trying to lead anyone on a wild goose chase.  I have come to this forum to meet new people and learn from their experiences.  I am in no way trying to tie up a thread.  My experiences with engines is far greater than most in newer technology.  This old mechanical is something I haven't played with.  Engines are nothing more that glorified compressors with timed fuel and ignition cycles.  I AM NOT Familiar with aviation induction, fuel and ignition.  If I can see what is broken and can relate it to what I am around it can be fixed. 

Second- My answer to promising not to leave the ground is dead nuts accurate.  I have had three such incidents in my flying history.  Two were because qualified techs forgot to either tighten a bolt or left a loose fuel line.   This third time I don't think the AP did anything wrong something broke or came undone that was missed in inspection by SIX different well trained APs.  I make mistakes everyday waking up is a mistake most days but I am getting to the bottom of what happened because the sound of silence on final in North Dakota where the winds change every two seconds is not a good feeling. 

Third- I was asking what could change, what could break,  how to test.  I got those answers and gave results that proved IT IS TOO DAM RICH!!!!!  I shared a phone call that without even rpm testing told me it was too rich.  Black smoke is partially burned fuel that in the combustion cycle is exiting with the exhaust cycles because it is still burning.  What I was looking for is what could possibly cause that.  Especially with nothing being touched.  I suspect you are right that it has been set up wrong for a long time.  As I was going to post today I found the thumb wheel maxed all the way forward of the adjustment screw.  Now I would not have known where to look if it wasn't for this forum.  Proving again that this place has answers I need. and proving that the plane is screwed up.

Fourth-  My hanger fairy statement was a quote back because if it were a simple fix I WOULD do it myself.  However after spending all day yesterday tearing into this and running it and performing all sorts of tests including a half ass 5 gas (couldn't keep the probe in the pipe) the CO was 999.9 on the readings the servo has to be sent out.   Apparently had I performed the fuel pressure test by running the boost pump for 90 seconds I would have seen the fuel running out of the servo like I was filling a tank and this only happens after a minute or so of running the boost pump.  That would explain my engine out on final.  According to SOPs boost pump on well in my case it over fueled and choked the engine.

I have said from the very beginning that this Forum is a valuable forum and probably the best I have ever been on.  I appreciate the answers and I understand that some answers need to be filtered.  That is to be a known and typing an issue or a response can be misinterpreted by the readers mood.  Going forward I'll keep my hanger fairies in the cage and I hope one day to be able to make a fly-in or host one where we can meet face to face.

[Marauder]

That was probably a different kind of smoke entirely.  

Gray smoke.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, cctsurf said:

The difficulty is that our original poster is dealing with is that he has 10-100x (maybe 1000x) as much engine experience as many of the A&Peees he's been dealing with.  

However, the incidence in which our mechanics just send things off for overhaul without knowing a thing about them beforehand is ludicrous.  

Wow.  Let the A&P bashing begin.

If you think you can do it better, go ahead.  Do it yourself.

Otherwise, just remember that the same A&P that you expect to be an expert at engine repair is the same guy that you expect to be an expert sheet metal repairman, expert electrician and electrical troubleshooter, expert fuel tank patch man, expert control system rigger, expert instrument installer, and you'll probably be disappointed if he tells you that no, he isn't comfortable repairing your avionics, you may have to take that to an avionics shop.

And he's probably also the guy that charges a lower hourly shop rate than most car dealerships.  And unlike your car dealer, he has to put his career on the line every time he signs your logbooks.   And if YOU are dumb enough to run out of fuel, guess who your widow is going to sue?

Why do you think so many A&Ps no longer work in the industry?

Andy

-A&P/IA that rarely works on other people's airplanes for the reasons listed above.

[Dream to fly]

1 minute ago, Andy95W said:

Wow.  Let the A&P bashing begin.

If you think you can do it better, go ahead.  Do it yourself.

Otherwise, just remember that the same A&P that you expect to be an expert at engine repair is the same guy that you expect to be an expert sheet metal repairman, expert electrician and electrical troubleshooter, expert fuel tank patch man, expert control system rigger, expert instrument installer, and you'll probably be disappointed if he tells you that no, he isn't comfortable repairing your avionics, you may have to take that to an avionics shop.

And he's probably also the guy that charges a lower hourly shop rate than most car dealerships.  And he has to put his career on the line every time he signs your logbooks, unlike your car dealer.  And if YOU are dumb enough to run out of fuel, guess who your widow is going to sue?

Why do you think so many A&Ps no longer work in the industry?

No lets not start bashing APs.  There are some that could use a refresher but bashing is uncalled for.  I think the post was made because some APs will send everything out instead of looking at the problem it was because he has inside knowledge to my situation.  Please don't label.   As a mechanic I hate being labeled as MSN does about the average garage rip-offs and I hate being classified as a monkey.  I understand where you are coming from and I for one get it.  But I would be happy to explain to you the situation if you'd like to PM or call me and I will be more than happy to explain and show you what has happened in the last 6 months.

[Andy95W]

Joe- please note in my post that I was not responding to you, but rather to cctsurf.

And if you read my whole post, you'll clearly see that I am not bashing A&Ps, but defending them, as I am one myself.

EDIT-

Joe- if I misunderstood your post, sorry.

I worked long enough as an A&P that I get pretty defensive when someone starts (or appears to start) generalizing about incompetent mechanics, until they've walked a mile in my oil-soaked shoes.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Andy95W

[cctsurf]

I was not so much bashing all a&ps as the ones he's been dealing with.  Sorry if it appeared so.  Notice that I said, "he's been dealing with."  This was not an attack on the good A&Ps.  I have an awesome A&P, IA that love working with.  We always check each other's work.  Yet, every time we have the plane apart, when I'm about to do the test flight, I invite him along...  He always says, "no".  Test flights after maintenance are the most dangerous flights we make.  Yes, his certificate is on the line, my life is on the line.  I'm sorry, my exposure is greater than his.  And no, my widow wouldn't sue the mechanic unless it was obvious negligence.  We all know that we take a risk by doing anything in this world.

As to price, 

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

And he's probably also the guy that charges a lower hourly shop rate than most car dealerships

If you reread what I said, "They charged him multiple thousands of dollars to do oil cooler hoses."  These are not the ones who charge less than a car dealership...  

As to the comment about the multiple areas where a&p's have to have competence, I would love to have shops be more specialized, this is difficult in a world where an airport may have an a&p, often not multiple.

I hate the fact that a&p's are targeted now that the manufacturers don't have eternal liability.  If I do something dumb, I'm at fault, not yours.

I think as much as anything, I'm bashing a government created system which divides not based on knowledge and skill but on whether you have been through their program and therefore have their anointing.

[Andy95W]

Okay, I'll stop taking it personally, and get a thicker skin!

(I stand by my comments, but I now see that I didn't need to direct them at you.)

[Yetti]

What annoys me is the people who would not know a #2 phillips if it was sticking out of their ear, are the first to claim some legal or illegal FAA this or that.  Just because it is beyond your abilities does not not mean that other folks do or do not know what they are doing.  Pretty sure that DTF knows that a plane that dies on final and is belching black smoke is not going to fly it again until he can diagnose the issue and fix it.  

[Yetti]

If find that all the armatures working on and flying experimental aircraft are pretty good source of knowledge http://www.vansairforce.com/community/archive/index.php?t-73498.html

[Yetti]

Induction leak?

https://dvatp.com/aviation/induction_leak

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, Yetti said:

If find that all the armatures working on and flying experimental aircraft are pretty good source of knowledge

All the armatures I know just sit there and spin.

[Yetti]

It takes knowledge to know of the words in play :-)  And a bit of reading comprehension

[takair]

Joe

Trying to understand your findings.  Was the mixture thumb screw all the way to one extreme (full lean?)?  Do you think it was adjusted there to offset a failing servo or do you think it vibrated there?  Also, curious where the fuel was coming out of, was it the front?  Thanks for keeping us in the loop.  It adds to our "database" of troubleshooting knowledge.

[Dream to fly]

Just now, takair said:

Joe

Trying to understand your findings.  Was the mixture thumb screw all the way to one extreme (full lean?)?  Do you think it was adjusted there to offset a failing servo or do you think it vibrated there?  Also, curious where the fuel was coming out of, was it the front?  Thanks for keeping us in the loop.  It adds to our "database" of troubleshooting knowledge.

I'm going to the airport now so I will post pictures in a few hours.  The thumb wheel was full forward and snug with spring pressure (minus maybe two turns) looking from the right side cowl panel removed.  The fuel is running out of the servo front.  It appears to be the left side where the throttle plate shaft is but I will need to get a mirror in there to verify.   Here is the tentative plan:

1. going to get pictures and numbers of the servo and the engine, then I am calling Lycoming in the morning.  I want to know if what I have is correct.  I know now that the former owner was not good at his maintenance and AP skills.  I also know that while I hate calling a person a liar,  his stories of what was, is NOT WHAT IS.
2. Decide from that conversation to pull servo and repair / replace or yank the engine.    
3. If it is repair replace I am having my AP do it.
4. If it is an engine swap.  I have some thinking to do.  As of right now I am into this plane for close to 78K and it has nothing for instrumentation. 

[Cyril Gibb]

Useful info to understand more about aircraft fuel injection.  Very interesting reading for someone already versed in engine technology of one sort or another.

http://www.precisionairmotive.com/Publications/15-812_b.pdf

http://www.precisionairmotive.com/Publications/15-810_b.pdf

Now that it seems you have ruled out idle mixture, it's beyond hangar fairy capability to resolve, although there's nothing wrong with assisting in diagnosis. note page 15/16 in 812 regarding leaks in servos causing over-rich.  Just one more data point.

re: the posts above... after maintenance on plugs/wires/mags/other stuff, I don't think it's AP bashing to point out that a normal thorough post-maintenance check by the signing AP should have detected these anomalies and prevented a potentially catastrophic release to the owner.   Let the chips fall where they may.

[Dream to fly]

1 hour ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Useful info to understand more about aircraft fuel injection.  Very interesting reading for someone already versed in engine technology of one sort or another.

http://www.precisionairmotive.com/Publications/15-812_b.pdf

http://www.precisionairmotive.com/Publications/15-810_b.pdf

Now that it seems you have ruled out idle mixture, it's beyond hangar fairy capability to resolve, although there's nothing wrong with assisting in diagnosis. note page 15/16 in 812 regarding leaks in servos causing over-rich.  Just one more data point.

re: the posts above... after maintenance on plugs/wires/mags/other stuff, I don't think it's AP bashing to point out that a normal thorough post-maintenance check by the signing AP should have detected these anomalies and prevented a potentially catastrophic release to the owner.   Let the chips fall where they may.

Those publications are exactly how I found the leak.  Actually in one of the publications it goes step by step as how to test the servo.  Well mine fails.  Now to clear up some details.  It is leaking from the front but not from the throttle shaft it is coming from the diaphragm seam it appears.  The next point is the thumb wheel must have been re-centered and then leaned again.  If you look closely there are fresh thread marks and the distance between the two set points is more that 2.5in.    So the AP and I will be having a come to Joey meeting.   As for chips falling I did preflight and I did take off its on me.

[Yetti]

Recalling from memory... mine is adjusted about midway...  With a bent towards being more forward.

Looked for a picture... no luck

 

 

[Yetti]

the top cotter pin on the adjustment is of concern

[Dream to fly]

Just now, Yetti said:

Recalling from memory... mine is adjusted about midway...  With a bent towards being more forward.

Looked for a picture... no luck

 

 

According to Precisionairmotive the wheel when set for installation is even between the two points.  Then after adjustment it should fall less than 5 turns one direction or the other.   From what I am finding it is a simple system but dirt and lack of cleaning can cause serious issues.  Then it gets adjusted more and more till it looks like mine.  This is proof again that some people should not screw with threaded things.  That is why the DOT/EPA took away carb adjustments and capped them, it stopped the homeowner from messing with settings.

[Dream to fly]

Just now, Yetti said:

the top cotter pin on the adjustment is of concern

that was a good catch.  its new "but he didn't touch it"