Another Radio Call Question

[Bob - S50]

OK, here's another radio call question/suggestion.

When I'm nearing an airport I normally hear something like this:  "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx is 5 miles East, will cross over the field at 2000' and maneuver to set up for a 45 to left downwind runway 35 Pierce County."

Why don't we just say something like, "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx, 5 miles East for a standard entry runway 35 Pierce County."?

OK, let me have it!

Bob

[RLCarter]

If I don't hear or see anyone else it's "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx, 5 miles East, full stop runway  xx"

[Skates97]

22 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

OK, here's another radio call question/suggestion.

When I'm nearing an airport I normally hear something like this:  "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx is 5 miles East, will cross over the field at 2000' and maneuver to set up for a 45 to left downwind runway 35 Pierce County."

Why don't we just say something like, "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx, 5 miles East for a standard entry runway 35 Pierce County."?

OK, let me have it!

Bob

Just a new guy, but I have seen where people think crossing over and then making the left turn to enter the downwind is "standard" as well as crossing over, extend out, and make a right turn to enter the left downwind on the 45 (a teardrop entry)is "standard." The problem is different people have different ideas of "standard."

I prefer to extend out and use the teardrop entry and I want to make sure everyone knows exactly what I'm doing, even if it takes a few extra seconds on the radio.

"Corona Traffic, white and gray Mooney  (no sense in giving the tail number, that doesn't help at the un-towered field)  three miles North of field, will be crossing mid-field at 2,000' and extending out for teardrop entry to left downwind runway 25, Corona."

[Guitarmaster]

If I don't hear or see anyone else it's "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx, 5 miles East, full stop runway  xx"

Thun field.... My first solo!

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[StevenL757]

...and my first 150 or so hours also.  I remember a checkride with Don Orton at one point in my logbook...

[Guitarmaster]

Yep! Don did my PPL.

My instructions for my solo were too, "not crash in a garbage dump because nobody's going to come get you.". Lol!

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[Guitarmaster]

I learned out of Eatonville when it was 2000ft grass with trees at both ends!

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[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

OK, here's another radio call question/suggestion.

When I'm nearing an airport I normally hear something like this:  "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx is 5 miles East, will cross over the field at 2000' and maneuver to set up for a 45 to left downwind runway 35 Pierce County."

Why don't we just say something like, "Pierce County traffic, Mooney xxx, 5 miles East for a standard entry runway 35 Pierce County."?

OK, let me have it!

Bob

Personally, I think the extra info is useful because it helps anybody else in the area with a picture of what you're doing.   That helps everybody's situational awareness.

[ArtVandelay]

"Corona Traffic, white and gray Mooney  (no sense in giving the tail number, that doesn't help at the un-towered field)  three miles North of field, will be crossing mid-field at 2,000' and extending out for teardrop entry to left downwind runway 25, Corona."

Hopefully no one is close enough to see your color scheme as well. I just use Mooney unless another one is on the radio, then use a shorten version of my tail number to make me unique.

I would break into different radio calls:

3 miles north, crossing midfield at 2000

2 miles south at 2000 turning to enter left downwind 25

Entering left downwind 25 (should be at traffic pattern altitude by this point)

 

 

Notice no "runway", 25 is self explanatory, if you don't know what it means you should be driving a car.

Also I call out on turns, it's easier to see a plane when it's banked.

 

[carusoam]

Using the 45° entry to downwind has become popular for the reason of better visibility while entering and better sight of other traffic while entering.

as the traffic pattern fills up with other planes, approaching the airport with the wind at your back, the 'standard' approach is not a standard.

The standard probably doesn't exist because fast planes and skilled pilots are allowed some flexibility that new pilots and slow planes don't have.

We used to have an MSer (Xftrplt) that would explain some of the approaches he would use. Overhead 360, which is a great way to manage energy all the way to the ground and roll out on short final ready to land...

Summary...

1) the standard has a lot of flexibility...

2) pilots of all skill levels are involved.

3) planes of all skill levels are involved.

4) on the 45... is pretty general, sort of joining at the mid field location. (Lots of interpretation gets used) great visibility for all involved.

5) Some planes are constantly orbiting the traffic pattern.

6) Fitting in with this situation takes a lot of specific communication.

7) This system does a pretty good job of a high density of operations, yet no additional cost of a tower.

8) reminds me of a traffic circle, or rotary (depending on where you are from)

9) No, our British friend is not allowed to fly right handed traffic patterns because of where he is from.

10) there are also helicopters continuously orbiting right handed patterns, crossing the field and doing auto rotations next to the runway....

11) communicate, communicate, communicate.  Standard for one is not standard for everyone....

12) flying mid-week, mid day, you may be very much alone in some places.  You still don't want to let your guard down...

13) avoiding running into objects requires that you know where all the other flying objects are.  If you make an error, you are relying on them to know where you are. 

My thoughts only, not a CFI...

let me know if I missed something.

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by carusoam

[chrisk]

If the radio is quiet, just try to be explicit about what you are doing.  i.e. "Pierce County  Mooney 1CB, 5 to the east, crossing mid field for a down wind to runway 35, Pierce County "

If the radio is busy, its even more of a reason to be explicit, particularly if your mixing it up with other traffic that might fly a different traffic pattern.  Like a jet, and some one on a 10 mile final instrument approach.

[luv737s]

How referring to aim chapter 14 page 4?  

 

 

[Hank]

Having learned at, and now being based at my 4th non-towered airport, this is what I do:

• First call, 10 nm out:  Podunk traffic, Mooney 4DJ is 10 miles (direction), inbound full stop. (When IFR, this is why we have two Comms; I use the one I'm not talking to Approach with, it only takes a few seconds to makes the call. And yes, I listen to it in Comm 2 for a while before turning the intercom.)
• 2nd Call, 5 nm out:  identical except for distance
• Entering the pattern from the east, landing 13:  Tallassee traffic, Mooney 4DJ entering left downwind, 13.
• Entering the pattern from the east, landing 31:  Tallassee traffic, Mooney 4DJ crossing the field east to west for left downwind entry, 31. Followed by, Tallassee traffic, Mooney 4DJ, left downwind 31.
• Call turning base.
• Call turning final.
• Call either "on the go" if doing go around or touch and go, or call when clear of the runway (often just "Mooney 4DJ is clear").

It's really not that difficult. Location of the crossover is just past midfield if 5000' or longer, and near the departure end if 3000' or so.

[DrBill]

no one knows what a standard anything is!!!

Bill

[Cyril Gibb]

For those flying to Canada, we have a different "standard" entry for uncontrolled fields.  The two entries are: cross overhead the field from the upwind side at pattern altitude to join a mid-downwind, or enter straight into the downwind. 

A slightly different flavour is a MF (mandatory frequency) uncontrolled field that is monitored to assist traffic in sequencing, but not controlling them.  Because radios are mandatory (no NORDO)  and the use of the radio for reporting is also mandatory, the pattern can also be entered on the US 45 downwind style or directly into the base or final leg.

[Bob - S50]

For those of us in the US, I think most people understand that the 'standard' pattern is an entry on the 45.  To me, that is where the 'standard' pattern begins.

I'm just not sure I need to explain how I'm going to get to the 45.  If the pattern is busy, it is even more important to be brief, not to add to the radio chatter, especially if there are 3 airports using the same frequency.  As long as I tell people where I am, that is, distance and direction from the airport, and that I'm going to use a standard (45) entry, they can figure the rest out.  If I'm on the opposite side from downwind, nobody thinks I'm going to cross the field at pattern altitude, they know I'm going to be 500 or 1000' above pattern entry.

[kortopates]

How referring to aim chapter 14 page 4?  
 
 

I am sure I would whole heartedly agree but you must mean something from chapter 4, perhaps 4-1-9?


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[bonal]

Not sure there are any revelations to be discovered here but for me weather controlled or not I make initial call at ten miles unless directed otherwise by ATC with  identifier position altitude and intentions. At non controlled fields will monitor for traffic on the CTAF and base my approach decisions on traffic at the time. My home field it's common for folks to reference things like Mt. Konocti and if your NSEW or over the Lake these things are very prominent even to those that are unfamiliar with the area. And I always make my calls for each pattern turn weather arriving or departing.

[gsxrpilot]

I'll have to disagree that there's anything "Standard" about a 45 degree entry to the downwind.  There are plenty of ways to safely enter a traffic pattern. There is no "Standard" way.

[bonal]

3 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Elstree traffic, G-OBAL 10 miles to the north east, postioing for standard overhead join runway 26. 

See there's that common language barrier thing again. When loading your Mooney do you open the boot? Or how about removing the cowl do you call it the bonnet. Hey everyone I just did a 201 bonnet mod.

[kortopates]

56 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'll have to disagree that there's anything "Standard" about a 45 degree entry to the downwind.  There are plenty of ways to safely enter a traffic pattern. There is no "Standard" way.

Finally, someone with some sense  All the above has been very good with the exception that the 45 degree is "standard". Frankly, as Cyril described the Canadian rules above, their guidance is more in tune with reality. 

None of this is to say their any thing wrong with the 45 degree entry every time since their isn't and that is exactly what we teach primary students. But personally, my goal in the pattern is to fit in while minimizing how much maneuvering I need to do, to fit in safely. On the radio I try to be informative yet brief. I sure don't care what your N number is, but type and position is most important and color is helpful.  Nor do I care how you intend to enter the traffic pattern while 5-10 miles out, since I'll likely be on the ground when you arrive anyway; save it for when you are entering. Heck, I don't even care what runway you say you intend to use 5-10 miles out, since I expect you to listen up on the radio and use the runway in use when you arrive. I realize many believe they are trying to be informative, but way too many tie up the frequency needlessly and too many are not listening before they speak. And lastly I don't know what to say about the pilots with a phobia about announcing at all except please talk. 

Getting back to the 45 and the standard pattern, I personally recommend this Deakin article which instills common sense into the discussion http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182100-1.html 

Edited March 21, 2017 by kortopates

[Aviationinfo]

Here's what the AOPA has to say about it.  Interestingly, they seem to refer to the 45 degree entry as preferable.  I agree that there's nothing in the FAR's that dictates how you enter a traffic pattern.  It all sort of boils down to the direction you're entering from, and what seems sensible at the time, and of course, avoiding a conflict.

 

sa08.pdf

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'll have to disagree that there's anything "Standard" about a 45 degree entry to the downwind.  There are plenty of ways to safely enter a traffic pattern. There is no "Standard" way.

Standard does not mean the same thing as safe.  Standard just means the usual way of doing something unless specified otherwise.  There are many safe ways to enter a pattern and land.  But I would argue there is only one standard pattern except under unusual local circumstances (like terrain, airspace, or obstacles).  Heck, at my home drone of Auburn, the 45 for runway 34 is more like a 90 to downwind because if you enter on a 45 you probably flew through the Seattle Class B surface area.  But everybody still calls it the 45.

The AIM, paragraph 4-3-3, specifically figure 4-3-2, describes the "Recommended Standard Left-Hand Traffic Pattern".

My point in the first place was to say, don't tell me all the details about how you are going to get into the pattern.  If you intend to enter on a 45, I don't care how you get there.  I don't care if you are crossing over the field or what altitude you will do that at unless you plan to do so at pattern altitude.  I also don't need to know you will be "maneuvering to set up for the 45".  I just want to know where you are (direction and distance), what runway you plan to use, and how you will enter.  Entering via a "standard" 45, overhead (initial), crosswind, downwind, base, straight in, or split S; just let me know so I know where to look for you.  Giving too much detail ties up the radio for what might be a very important call that somebody else needs to make like "short final at Pierce County, go around, your gear is up!"

[bonal]

I tend to get a little peeved when folks start discussing lunch plans or hey Joe is that you but radio clutter is kind of a case by case issue heck at my home field you can go hours without hearing a thing. And to be honest if it's not busy I tend to enter the pattern on whatever leg I'm on as I get close if it's ten miles out and on the base heading then that's my entry. There have been times when there might be one other plane in the area and they sometimes get pretty bent if I announce a ten mile final for straight in. But I just let it roll off and do what I think is safe and best for the situation and sometimes a 45 mid field could put you into a crowded mess. I think it's also very good form to work with others in sorting out the order of things be gracious let the fast movers go ahead etc. and at the same time you fast movers shouldn't think you deserve first dibs when way out if some guy in a 172 is in the pattern already. At the uncontrolled fields we are our own stewards and it's all about communication except for the guy with no comm's (something I still think strange) that it's not required.

[201er]

I don't know. I fly a Mooney. That whole over the airport, tear drop, 45 business is for students and cessnas. I'm already on the ground having lunch by the time they're done with their practice routine.