Low Time Mooney Pilots, What is your Crosswind Comfort?

[MBDiagMan]

I think my C and my Mooney specialist CFI will be here Thursday and leave Friday night.  IF I am flying on my own Saturday, it appears that I will be faced with 5 to 15 winds, gusting to 20.  This will be South SouthEast on some North/South runways.

For you low time pilots, or low time in Mooney pilots, what is your comfort level with this?  Since it is sort of down the runway, I would do this in my taildragger, but I have lots of time and lots of landings in it.

Now, without the above scenario as a discussion point, what do you consider your gust limits and your crosswind limits?

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by MBDiagMan

[Andy95W]

To begin your Mooney career, you will probably feel very comfortable very quickly using the same winds that you would feel comfortable with in a taildragger.  And I think your comfort level will increase quickly to handle much greater winds in the Mooney.

Good luck, have fun, and please keep us posted.

[nels]

Personally, I would practice a lot with your Mooney before doing any cross wind landings over three or four knots. I'm a lower time pilot and I'm getting pretty good with moderate cross winds but I also have the benefit of a runway that is 100 ft wide. What's your hurry?

[Yetti]

If you can do one wheel landings you should be pretty comfortable after your time with your CFI.  Have not found the rudder limit of the Mooney yet.

[MBDiagMan]

My hurry?  Well, I have a new (to me) plane and I want to go places.  I need to be at Greenville Saturday morning for CAP flying and then in Mount Pleasant Saturday afternoon and would rather fly than drive. Mount Pleasant is the most narrow of the runways I will be on over the weekend at 6,000 X 100.  Greenville has 150 feet wide runways as does Paris, which is where much of my initial training will be I am sure.  After this weekend I will be in and out of several 75' and one 60' wide runways.

I like hearing that Andy.  If It turns out I can land in the same conditions as I am currently comfortable with, I will be a happy camper and will get in some flying in the upcoming March winds.

[madjano]

I have a short rudder and practice up to 10kt no worries. Typically I cross control on final and maybe closer to 80 mph or gust factor.. I have yet to run out of rudder. If you don't like what you see, go around. Living in Nebraska, you wouldn't be flying much if you waited around for calm days.


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[smwash02]

I came from a 150 and found the Mooney doesn't handle the XW as gracefully as the 150 did, but it's not too difficult. It handles it well enough.

As a tailwheel pilot, I image you're plenty fast on your feet, which is what you'll need. I found holding the plane down until I was ready to jump up worked well for takeoffs on bad days. Some suggest limiting the flaps on landing. I tend to use all of them and raise the lever as the wheels touch to keep from jump back up in gusty conditions during the flare.

Spend some time on your go arounds if they're not up to snuff so you can land comfortably on your terms if you're not happy with the approach. The procedure with the hydraulic flaps and J bar can take some getting used to.

 

[mike20papa]

We've discussed this lots of times on the list.  Some of us (count me in) actually believe the X-wind take offs more of a challenge.  Mooney's are not the most stable AC on take off, you have to hold some back pressure to minimize nose wheel over steering.  Then factor in some aileron to a predetermined amount.  The 180 hp with the constant speed prop is no Cessna 140!  Into a stiff left hand xwind  - you are out of right rudder from p factor, and the xwind will usually make the take off a crab the moment you get airborne - rudder to the stops, and hunting for aileron.  It can be a bit of a juggernaut.  The xwind landings - if I can hold centerline of runway coming down final (even with controls to the stops) then I'm good for the landing.  If I cannot hold the centerline coming down final - I find another AP.

[DonMuncy]

Don't worry about what cross winds other people are willing to land in. Every chance you get, fly in a couple of knots higher than you felt OK with last time. Within a short period of time, you will find your spot. It will keep growing as long as you keep expanding your experience. Ultimately (at least for me) if I can track the centerline with rudder, you won't have too much trouble landing it. 

[tigers2007]

I had an odd experience yesterday when rotating on an ice covered runway yesterday. Was departing runway 29 with winds earlier reported at 190@10G16 (13kt max crosswind component). Just before I hit 60MPH the entire bird yawed like 30 degrees to the left toward the huge snow banks. I jammed the right rudder as much as I could to straighten her out while giving it some back pressure and also yanking that gear up. All of that happened in like two seconds. It was quite unexpected but I got off the ground. Crosswinds on ice covered runways are certainly a challenge; this wasn't my first experience. Tire chains would make a huge difference here.

[Skates97]

I'm low a time pilot and low time Mooney pilot. I think about 85 hours total with just a little north of 20 hours in the Mooney. I think it handles the crosswinds as well as the Cherokees I trained in, there just isn't as much rudder to work with. The crosswind doesn't bother me much, it's the gusting crosswinds I don't care for. Landed on 07 with winds 040 18G26 a couple weeks ago and that was the worst winds I have landed in so far. Runway is 3,200 x 60 and I was wishing I had the 150' wide runways at Chino to work with...  I did land it, on the left side of the center line, and although I didn't like it, I was happy to know I was able to do it. 

I'm comfortable in about up to 8-9 knot steady crosswinds. Higher than that or throwing in gusty winds and the comfort level goes down very quickly. 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for the great and articulate responses!  Please keep them coming.

I cross control crosswind landings.  I hope that one wheel works as well on a low wing airplane as it does in my little taildragger.  I have never crabbed to the runway and straightened up at the last second, but maybe that will be in the cards now.

I have landed the taildragger in what I call a two point landing in a three point attitude.  In a tricycle, that should be nose high on one wheel (if that makes a lick of sense.)

[Shadrach]

I'm not a low time or a high time Mooney pilot (I'd guess ~800hrs). I can't imagine how anything you'd feel comfortable doing in the 140 would be less comfortable in your C. I fly a Super Decathlon in addition to the Mooney.  My X wind limit in the SD is way below the Mooney. Your TD experience should serve you well. The winds you list in your OP should be a piece of cake. 

[salty]

I had about 25 hours in my mooney (at most 80 hrs total) when I found myself needing to get home with a 20 knot gust cross wind at my home airport. I sat at the departing airport for an hour trying to decide what to do, when finally I decided to give it a shot - based on the fact that there was a runway 10 miles from my home airport that was in line with the wind. I figured I'd try a few approaches at home, and if I wasn't comfortable, I'd land at the other airport. First approach was fine, and i had no problem putting it down on the center line. I did feel like the rudder hit the stops once when a gust slammed into me, but that was probably my imagination. After that, I honestly haven't worried about crosswinds too much unless the wind is over 20. 

As mentioned above, I can't imagine you having any issues with the mooney if you're used to a light taildragger.  

I also agree with the sentiment expressed above that xwind takeoffs seem to be more tricky than the landings. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by salty

[StevenL757]

A golden rule when choosing to fly in winds like what's being described...from my instructor, an FAA inspector/manager, formerly a captain at Eastern..."when the wind comes up, the flaps come up".

[midlifeflyer]

30 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

A golden rule when choosing to fly in winds like what's being described...from my instructor, an FAA inspector/manager, formerly a captain at Eastern..."when the wind comes up, the flaps come up".

I was essentially taught this as a student pilot. Fast forward to my training as a CFI. Direct crosswind 15-20 kts. My instructor asked how I would land in it. I replied I would never use flaps. His reply, "lets go up and do some full flap landings."

Pretty much a non-event. 

The choice is a technique issue. I've seen a bunch of discussion with the net result for me being there are as many reasons to use flaps as not to use flaps.

[bradp]

I think some of the variability were seeing here is pilot and some is how much rudder you have. Earlier models didn't have the lower portion of the rudder (extended fully down the aft nav light). That's a whole lot of rudder authority there

 

 

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[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

A golden rule when choosing to fly in winds like what's being described...from my instructor, an FAA inspector/manager, formerly a captain at Eastern..."when the wind comes up, the flaps come up".

Yes, a lot of us were taught this.  But why?

I always adhered to this guidance as well until I acquired more experience and ratings.  I'm curious to hear the rationale behind this "golden rule".

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

I think some of the variability were seeing here is pilot and some is how much rudder you have. Earlier models didn't have the lower portion of the rudder (extended fully down the aft nav light). That's a whole lot of rudder authority there

 

 

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Does anyone know off hand when they added the longer rudder?  IIRC I read that it was the B model that had the shorter rudder, but maybe it was the early C.  Mine is a '63.

BTW, thanks for the ongoing posts.  Great stuff.

[Cyril Gibb]

I find that rudder/aileron authority varies according to airspeed.  If I do an aggressive slip to lose airspeed or altitude quickly (no speed brakes) at higher speeds, my ailerons have more authority than my rudder.  When I have to do a one wheel takeoff or landing in a stiff crosswind, I run out of aileron before rudder at that lower airspeed.  The limit for me to stay centered and straight is about 20kts crosswind component.  The wildest I've done was a 30G40 90 degree crosswind.  It wasn't pretty.   I've found that a high wing is easier for me in a crosswind.  The ground effect in a low wing gives more opportunity to float in the last few seconds before touching down.  Those last few seconds are where I can run out of aileron in the Mooney trying to hold the downwind wheel off.  I find that flaps help aileron authority and use them always.

[madjano]

Does anyone know off hand when they added the longer rudder?  IIRC I read that it was the B model that had the shorter rudder, but maybe it was the early C.  Mine is a '63.
BTW, thanks for the ongoing posts.  Great stuff.

I'm not sure what year it switched, but if your stinger doesn't move with the rudder you have a short rudder. Mines a 66E.

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[Yetti]

Centerline is the centerline.... does not matter how wide the runway is.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

I think some of the variability were seeing here is pilot and some is how much rudder you have. Earlier models didn't have the lower portion of the rudder (extended fully down the aft nav light). That's a whole lot of rudder authority there

 

Assuming a totally proficient pilot, the amount of rudder available to straighten the airplane while still controlling drift at the point of touchdown (whether you slip all the way, crab and kick or do any of the infinite variations between the two ends of the continuum) is what the real crosswind component is.  But I don't think that has much to do with the choice of flaps or no flaps.

 

34 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Yes, a lot of us were taught this.  But why?

I always adhered to this guidance as well until I acquired more experience and ratings.  I'm curious to hear the rationale behind this "golden rule".

The basic rationale is pretty straightforward.  Slower airspeed means less control effectiveness. Target airspeed is higher without flaps. The theory is you will be able to control drift and straighten the airplane better without flaps because you have more airspeed, hence more aileron and rudder authority.

Another  is based on the "slips with flaps" mythology involving the blanketing effect of flaps on the airflow to the elevator/stabilator and rudder. The Cessna 172 manual even talks about it in these terms, suggesting the minimum flap setting for the runway length be used when leading in crosswinds due to elevator oscillation, although it goes on to point out the oscillations do not affect control.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Does anyone know off hand when they added the longer rudder?  IIRC I read that it was the B model that had the shorter rudder, but maybe it was the early C.  Mine is a '63.

BTW, thanks for the ongoing posts.  Great stuff.

The long rudder started with the first Mid-body in the "tail end" of 1966 (pun intended, 3 were made). I am not sure when it trickled to the rest of the model line.

I think you'll find the short rudder machines to be perfectly capable in reasonable winds (≥20kts 90° to Rnwy heading).  The long rudder birds are a bit better.  Sunday I did two T&Gs on Rnwy 20 winds varying 280-30020G29, both circuits  went fine.  I used partial flaps and flew a faster than normal final (80ish mph).  While the conditions sounded like they'd be close to my limit, it really was not that dramatic. Take off is in some ways the most challenging as you are figuring out how much control input is needed while control effectiveness is building. The airplane will at times skip sideways in gusts near flying speed, best to make the transition from rolling to flying as quickly as possible.

I consider myself to be an average Mooney pilot and a below average TD pilot (I only fly bout 8hrs a year in the SD).

Mooneys are fine xwind aircraft.  The only way to become proficient is to practice. If you're uncomfortable, you don't need to land.

[Dave Colangelo]

I dont have a Mooney (yet...) but I am a low time pilot and here is what ill say on the matter FWIW... 

My instructor was really big on cross winds, he felt it was a weak point in his training and made sure to emphasize it when he was instructing me. As such we went up in a lot of conditions or flew to airports that had conditions that really pushed my skills as a student pilot. More than anything this really helped me grow during my training and learn what the plane was capable of as well as what I was capable of. I have no worries about taking the plane to the demonstrated crosswind limit as I have done it before and done it on what many would consider smaller runways. There really is no replacement for experience in this case. If you have some time it may be well worth it to go up with a Mooney instructor in your plane on a windy day and really learn what the plane can do.    

 

Regards 

Dave