75 degrees higher on back two cylinders.

[Dham]

[Yetti]

Break in is per Lycomig procedure.  The new cylinders will be hotter till they set. Who did the wiring? Blech! 

[Dham]

1st mech. Installed new jpi last year ( of course it's wrong) don't want to mention names. Any advice on correcting.


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[Bob_Belville]

• Your cruise CHT are not bad at all though it would be nice to have them more even. Your orginal post mentioned high temps on take off and climb. That often is caused by low FF at high power settings. You should be seeing about 18 GPH on take off.  
• Your baffle seals (the orange rubber - the "baffles" are the metal part) look fairly new but badly installed. the black marks are from rubbing the top cowl and are a good thing. You could be losing air everywhere there is no sign that the seal is touching the cowl. Ideally there would be no where for the cooling air to go except down through the cylinder fins. The more pressure you can create above the engine the more uniform the cooling will be.
• Can you expand upon the 700 mentioned in the OP? Surely that was not a CHT. 
• While it does not affect the CHTs it does raise a red flag about the (poor) instrumentation installation: Someone doesn't read installation manuals. The EGT probes are supposed to be exactly the same distance away from the exhaust header flange. The 2 we can see in the first pic are not even close. 
• Cole in Dalton GA is probably the closest Mooney Service Center. Maxwell in Longview TX is close enough to get there nonstop from Prattville. Either one will take care of you and both have worked on many of the Mooneys owned here. MooneySpacer "Hank" in Auburn will likely comment on someone he uses that might be closer.

[Dham]

Yes the 700 came from a bad spider and teflon on the fittings. I will try and post data from jpi. Yes cruise temps can be ok put must of the time I have cowl flaps open.


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[Yetti]

Take this like you would WebMD.      The rear baffle seal needs to be installed on a curve.  If you look I bet it is bolted on straight across.  The top cowl is a curve.  That will get rid of the wave.  Where the baffle is not black you have a gap.

Wiring Right side.  I would move all the sensor wires down to the alternator B+ wire and use it for a guide to bring it back up.  And make your old thermcoupler wire neater, put it behind the intake tube.   Clean up the fuel sensor wiring on top.   Like others said, you may want to check if it goes there and not along the lower left side.

Tywraps melt pretty quick and leave your firesleeve flapping when you need it most.  Metal bands are the proper way to fire sleeves.  not sure I would want that many fuel connections up on top of the engine.

Are you running mineral oil?  Did you go fly the Lycoming break in procedure?

I've only read the first mechanics book and looked at the question.

[Browncbr1]

+1 on sloppy baffles.. too much material there..   

+1 on the less than safe location of the FF transducer.. 

 

Looking at your JPI, and that rear two are new cylinders, it doesn't seem too bad to me.... my #3 is hottest, while my #1 is coldest... ... but, definitely need to clean up that baffling.. IMHO

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

•  
• While it does not affect the CHTs it does raise a red flag about the (poor) instrumentation installation: Someone doesn't read installation manuals. The EGT probes are supposed to be exactly the same distance away from the exhaust header flange. The 2 we can see in the first pic are not even close. 
•  

I believe the one exhaust has 2 EGTs, the factory and the JPI, the JPIs are same distance.

[Bob_Belville]

5 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I believe the one exhaust has 2 EGTs, the factory and the JPI, the JPIs are same distance.

Yes, my bad. And the EGTs displayed on the EDM are very even.

[Yetti]

and I don't think there should be that much stuff around the Fuel Injector lines.  Lots of wind goes through there and things flap around and vibrate. It will probably cause your push rod tubes to start leaking oil

 

From the JPI Manual

.

All pump fed carbureted and Fuel injected engines without vapor return lines.

700921

Between engine driven

pump and servo/throttle

body or carburetor

10

Yours is between the servo and the Fuel divider 

https://www.jpinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/In503ffRevC+Diff.pdf

 

[Dham]

Wow thanks a lot of useful info. Talked with Guy with Geebee per some of you guys and he was very helpful I have new baffles on the way. Yes I am running mineral oil now and mech. Kept telling me that was cause of high temps plus new cylinders. The picture of the jpi is with four new cylinders. I have not flown with the new two rear cylinder yet. Had only about 10 hours on others.


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[Dham]

To move fuel sensor to left side will require a new fuel line I'm guessing so that may need to be done by mech. Familiar with jpi.


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[Yetti]

Don't know what is under the fire sleeve but the line from the Servo to the Fuel divider and the line from the pump to the Servo are two different sizes.   A competent mechanic can make up fuel lines as the fittings are fields serviceable.   If you need hoses made PHT Hoses in Oklahoma.

[kmyfm20s]

Always check to make sure there is not exhaust leaking from the gasket at the cylinder interface and flowing back to the probe. This has happened to others and give high CHT readings. I would suspect this could be the problem if those where the 2 cylinders that where replaced.

[Yetti]

first picture top of this page

Tywraps on the engine mount are a no no.  Cord tie is OK.  Adel clamps are better.   Engines move alot on their mounts, it would be better to use between the firewall and engine as a flex zone vs. tieing things to the motor mount.  

After you get things straighten out I would have a "lessons learned" session with the first mechanic.  If he did install the FF sensor wrong, he signed off as airworthy when not.  has to be installed via the install instructions to be airworthy.

Spend some time reading the install manual to verify where the FF sensor should go.

 

[Dham]

Thanks Yetti I would like to have the jpi installed properly and while I like doing things myself I don't think I have any more knowledge than the mech. That installed it. Having mooneyspace has been very helpful but at this point I think I need to find a Mooney mechanic that can go over it and give me a punch list of things that need to be done I feel like it's never going to end at this rate.


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[gsxrpilot]

Sounds like time for a visit with the Oracle at KGGG.

[bradp]

My install of the fuel flow transducer was done incorrectly at first. It incorrectly had the FF transducer installed directly to the throttle body / fuel servo. There should be a length of fuel hose between the servo and the fuel flow transducer and as quoted above, the FF transducer and the engine driven pump. Henry Weber guys in NE caught it. You will need a new length of hose.


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[Yetti]

When I was learning about airplane things a year ago with a good A&P we joked about the phrase "Different levels of precision"

When he gave me my transition training later, the front wheel always is on the center line. taxing, takeoff, landing.  No if ands or buts.

[Marauder]

• Your cruise CHT are not bad at all though it would be nice to have them more even. Your orginal post mentioned high temps on take off and climb. That often is caused by low FF at high power settings. You should be seeing about 18 GPH on take off.  
• Your baffle seals (the orange rubber - the "baffles" are the metal part) look fairly new but badly installed. the black marks are from rubbing the top cowl and are a good thing. You could be losing air everywhere there is no sign that the seal is touching the cowl. Ideally there would be no where for the cooling air to go except down through the cylinder fins. The more pressure you can create above the engine the more uniform the cooling will be.
• Can you expand upon the 700 mentioned in the OP? Surely that was not a CHT. 
• While it does not affect the CHTs it does raise a red flag about the (poor) instrumentation installation: Someone doesn't read installation manuals. The EGT probes are supposed to be exactly the same distance away from the exhaust header flange. The 2 we can see in the first pic are not even close. 
• Cole in Dalton GA is probably the closest Mooney Service Center. Maxwell in Longview TX is close enough to get there nonstop from Prattville. Either one will take care of you and both have worked on many of the Mooneys owned here. MooneySpacer "Hank" in Auburn will likely comment on someone he uses that might be closer.

Bob - I think his JPI probes are positioned correctly. The one probe that is lower appears to be the factory probe.


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[carusoam]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

 

According to the guys at GAMI teaching the APS course, airflow is actually backwards from what you described. Air is flowing forward across the top of the cylinders.

This would make the baffling in the pictures actually much worse. Air is being sucked from the top and back near the firewall. The rear cylinders are in an air flow shadow.

No wonder those cylinders are hot.

 

Paul,

I think what the APS guys are saying...  (especially with the M20C guppy mouth)

1) It is designed to flow from High pressure to low pressure. In the front, down through the fins, and out out the bottom flaps...

2) It can get a lot of turbulent flow that actually goes out the front.  80% as designed, 20% in an un expected away. (Numbers to help in making a picture)

3) my C would show oil drips flowing forward out of the cowl as well as through the normal way.

4) yes some flow is actually backwards, but it is not all going backwards...

5) it takes 100% maintenance as designed to achieve the best airflow. Gaps, cracks and spaces make it easy for crompessible fluids like air to behave less predictably.

6) high pressure comes from the ram effect entering the front of the cowl.

7) notice that all cowlings have gone to a more delivery of ram air as required, less open guppy style...  same engine, same operation, stream lined airflow...

8) The Best example of this is the new cowl updates designed by MS's cowl guy...

9) Then again, the APS guys are pretty bright. I would want to read what they are saying again to see if one of us is missing something.  I'm pretty good a misunderstanding...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

Bob - I think his JPI probes are positioned correctly. The one probe that is lower appears to be the factory probe.


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Geez, how many times am I going to be corrected after my mea culpa? 

[jetdriven]

6 hours ago, Dham said:

The fuel hose is sitting on 3 of the 4 fuel injector lines.  They have an AD on them to have correct routing and nothing is supposed to touch them. Then the fuel transducer fire sleeve is held on with Zip ties. Seriously. There's no fire protection in that.  The drawing shows them crimped on with stainless bands. 

[Marauder]

Geez, how many times am I going to be corrected after my mea culpa? 

Cum non magis erroris...


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[Guest]

The way I read JPI report 503 the flow transducer can be installed in the line between the servo and the flow divider.  This installation could stand some clean up.

Clarence