Very bad FBO experience

[PTK]

I think it serves no good purpose to be slamming an FBO for their fees and practices.

Helitim you will find that if you do your homework ahead of time there will be no surprises. You'll also find that fees are waived with a fuel purchase. Think of it this way: they are discounting the fuel for you!

All made possible by planning ahead. It only takes one phone call.

[bonal]

Without providing specifics because i value my job If our customers want to recieve an accurate cost to engineer and install facilites to their projects my company requires an Engineering advance that the customer could have to forfeit should they decide to cancel the project. These advances typically run 1 to 2 AMU's It's the most frustrating part of my job.  Thankfully since I have been doing this for decades am able to provide a shoot from the hip estimate that is going to be very close without the need for the formal deposit but thats only because of my many years experience lots of my co engineering estimators are unable to do this.  This is company policy and is VERY frustrating for my customers and myself.  As for me I think it's a 2 way street with all my business dealings I want to recieve the best service and at the same time I want to be the best customer possible we recieve what we give

[helitim]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

Not sure the ramp guy was even collecting for the FBO was he doing his job as required by the airport. You also mentioned you were picking up a part that was delivered to the FBO which had to be received by someone working there and someone had to determine the disposition of the delivery and then an employee was nice enough to walk the item out to you personally. Sounds like you did receive some value there. Not being a fly on the propeller I can't comment on the conversation with the ramp guy perhaps he could have been more specific or polite but then maybe he was doing that but you were not receiving it that way. Granted I don't have near the experience as most of you but we have never had a bad FBO experience in fact they are one of the last places that still provide real customer service. I remember one trip where the line guy literally placed a small red carpet under the wing walk before my wife stepped off. 

Bonal, please reread the original post.  The part was picked up curbside.  Nothing was dropped off to the FBO.  No services whatsoever were used. This was why we were genuinely confused about the charge.  

No, we did not call ahead as we apparently should have.  Lesson learned on that point.  It appears calling ahead needs to be added to the preflight list when going to unfamiliar airports. I still contend that as a tax paying citizen, there should be no fee to simply park on a public use ramp when absolutely zero services are utilized for such a short turn around.  If we spent the night or even stayed a few hours, used any services at all, then I have no argument with fees if properly posted.

[Mooneymite]

Obviously, FBO pricing is a hot subject with a lot of different viewpoints.

I think one of the problems is that Mooney owners, generally, just want a place to park and buy cheap fuel.  FBOs at larger airports provide much more and consequently charge much more.  If one goes to the typical Atlantic, or Signature (which seems to be taking over all the FBOs!), the services "available" far exceed our needs, but we still are expected to pay for our cut of the pie.

Do you need coffee pots filled?  Newspapers from 10 different cities? 20 pounds of ice?  10 passenger shuttle from your airplane to the FBO?  Well trained linemen to move you airplane to/from the jet-sized hangars?  Cookies?  Fuel rebate programs?  And on, and on......

For example, I found that KILM now only has one FBO operating.  The fees have risen; there is no competition.  Air Wilmington is a very nice facility for jets and provides everything that a jet might need.  Wouldn't it be nice if we could "just park" on the ramp space vacated by the former FBO?  Airport manager says she doesn't want to "dilute" the FBOs business.  In other words, don't use ILM unless you're willing to support the entire operation with your share of the pie even if you don't want that big a piece of pie.

Woudn't it be nice if we, as consummers, were given a choice?

 

[Andy95W]

I will maintain that if the fees were fair and reasonable the FBO wouldn't have sent the kid out with the pickup truck to block the airplane from leaving.  (No, I don't blame the kid for doing what he was told.)

To me, this proves (along with not allowing comments on Airnav) the FBO has had problems with this issue in the past and therefore knows from the majority's view that the fees are not fair and not reasonable.

Lesson learned for me: call ahead and check Airnav.  If the FBO in question doesn't allow comments, go somewhere else.

I learned something new.  Thanks.

[Mooneymite]

Well, don't forget that a few of the high-end FBOs offer nose trunion damage with every "free" tow.  That's worth something.  Ask me how I know.

[thinwing]

13 hours ago, Brandontwalker said:

You are totally out of line here. I'd rather be a boob than an ass...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's me I guess ,a horses ass for getting riled up over what I see as public mistreatment of a friends business.My wife thinks I should have used more diplomatic words..i.e. No Clueless,boob,stupid etc...at least I didn't use stronger words that I was really thinking.So ,helitim,yes I think you accepted services i.e. Use of pvt ramp the jet center leases from Sacramento county,You have parts delivered to Sac jet center therefore use their paid staff acting as your agent.Than when you rush off ,are offended when they have to send a line service guy to collect their rightfully earned fee.You than post on a public forum  advising all Mooney Spacers to avoid this fbo i.e. Negative review in an attempt to hurt Sacramento jetcenters future business.That kinda my definition of what a "cyber bully" really is.You have Sent me a PM offering to meet me in person ,implying ,I am hiding behind the internet...I accept your terms as you say I can choose the time and place..the place is Sacramento Jet Center ramp ,Mather airport ,Fri ,10 am .If you fly in, I will even pay your 20.00 ramp fee.Weather,no excuse ,if it's below rnav minimums I will drive.See you there,heli guy 

[gsengle]

Being a tax payer is a nonsense argument. Try that argument at the next toll booth you drive through. You don't have to fly there if you don't like the fees. The FBO has to pay rent. Their business practices may be good or bad but it's certainly well within normal practice to change a ramp fee even for dropping a passenger with no other services. Finally, have we ascertained that this wasn't an airport imposed landing fee?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

I've been to over 650 different airports over the last 10 years (yep, I counted them).  Many FBOs post their fees, a few do not.

Giant letters in the air would be nice, but posting them on Airnav would cost them NOTHING.  There does seem to be a trend:  the higher and more unreasonable the fees, the harder it is to find out what they are.

Ramp/service fees began inching up during the great recession when flying dropped off the charts.  The FBO's just weren't selling enough fuel to keep the lights on.  As flying increases, I'm hoping these ramp fees will ameliorate.  We need these FBOs and they need us, but we need to know what we're getting into when we land somewhere.

I doubt the fees will go away with increased traffic. Now that people are accustomed to the fee, they'll continue charging them. It's kinda like a tax. It never goes away. 

[yvesg]

One of my favorite place I fly to every year is Madison Wisconsin. Wisconsin aviation has the following on the door giving access to the FBO:

 

[kerry]

14 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Being a tax payer is a nonsense argument. Try that argument at the next toll booth you drive through. You don't have to fly there if you don't like the fees. The FBO has to pay rent. Their business practices may be good or bad but it's certainly well within normal practice to change a ramp fee even for dropping a passenger with no other services. Finally, have we ascertained that this wasn't an airport imposed landing fee?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's what's great about America.  Freedom of speech to bad mouth any FBO.  I think it's in bad taste to park a truck in front of your airplane and prevent it from moving.  The FBO can take note of your N# and send a bill.  A toll booth won't tow my car.  I'm glad for the heads up.  I now know to avoid  Sacramento Jet Center.

[bonal]

Sorry Heli, the first part of your complaint kind of contradicts this "Landed at Mather today near Sacramento to pick up an aircraft part that was being delivered to the airport FBO, Sacramento Jet Center" I stand by my previous statements as for FBO fees I have never paid them because I always buy fuel.  And plaese dont kick me out of the CB club we dont use the self serve we let the line crew do what they are there for even though it's more expensive

[gsengle]

Ha, you don't pay at some toll booths the gate won't go up and the police will ticket you... and will someone answer if this was in part collecting an airport landing fee?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KSMooniac]

He said he didn't park on their ramp, and didn't have the part delivered to the FBO. He met the delivery in the street, not at or in the FBO. He purposely avoided any contact with the FBO and thus should've avoided the fee. No different than taxiing by and parking somewhere else. The only mistake was being within visual range of the FBO.

I concur with the observation of hidden comments on Airnav...that rarely results in a reasonable FBO in my experience.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

GS beat me to the analogy...

It is a lot like paying a toll on the NJ Turnpike...

1) The amount owed depends on how much you use.

2) the exact amount isn't posted in an easy to access place.

3) you generally know how much when you leave the TPK.

4) If you skip the toll, things get really expensive.

5) There is a road that runs parallel to this highway, and it's free.

 

The FBO system is a variable price system.

1) some people like the full fare, red carpet treatment, with all the emenities...

2) some prefer the low cost, bare minimum, run in, run out...

3) know before you go... have a plan

4) Practice what questions you are going to ask in your head, like 'how can I minimize these fees, can I buy gas?' This is called high speed negotiations.  Similar to getting your routing changed while flying...

5) skipping out on the payment would not work for anyone...  Know, negotiate, avoid, but don't skip out...

6) crossing some bridges around here cost $10 or more.  Expensive for a simple mistake, and you can end up in some pretty un-nice parts of Harlem/NYC...

Life does have some challenges... 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERY ONE I'M OUT

[Mooneymite]

38 minutes ago, yvesg said:

One of my favorite place I fly to every year is Madison Wisconsin. Wisconsin aviation has the following on the door giving access to the FBO:

Yes, that's a great FBO.  There are really a lot of Great FBO's.  Too bad we seem to remember the inferior ones.

Wilson Air Center runs probably THE best line of FBO's I'm familiar with....whether you're in your G-650, or your Mooney.  If these folks can give first class service at all these different airports...and at their prices, it makes one wonder what's wrong with the other FBOs.

One huge indicator:  Not only are the customers are happy....all the employees seem to be too.  That tells me management is enlightened.

Kudos are due....Kudos are rendered.

Read the comments on Airnav....they aren't suppressed.    https://www.airnav.com/airport/KCLT/WILSON

Maybe others have their favorites?

[Yooper Rocketman]

DItto for me on the Madison FBO.  But the policy has no bearing on me.  I will never stop at an FBO and not patronize them without purchasing SOME fuel.  I had one time recently with Jet Center in Green Bay where I couldn't put fuel on because of picking up passengers but assured them I would be back in 3 days and fill up.  They waived the fee and I filled up with 50+ gallons several days later.  

That said I stopped using Executive Air on the Green Bay airport about 2 years ago after being a regular customer for over 20 years.  They adopted a new policy that required a full top off or a ramp fee.  My Rocket holds 105 gallons and is NEVER topped off unless I am doing a really long cross country flight.  I read Air Nav comments as to the policy change, got direct feedback from our local CFII that the policy was being enforced, and then called the FBO to verify this was actually the case, even explaining how that wouldn't work for me and I would likely put more full on than many would by topping off.  They confirmed the policy.  I posted on Air Nav why I changed FBO's ( https://www.airnav.com/airport/KGRB/EXECUTIVE_AIR ) and I got a phone call the next day.  They said they would waive the fee FOR ME (I had done a lot of business with them over the last 20 years), but that was their new "general" policy.  I don't like "special treatment" and as such, told him I had made my decision and wasn't changing my mind now.  It was clear the new FBO manager had screwed up, because by the time he posted a response to my comments, their policy was changed, trying to make me look like I was uninformed.

Bottom line; do your homework before arriving to an FBO as to their fees, realize the FBO's don't make money to pay the airport lease, lights and payroll without revenue from us, and it's almost always a better bang for your buck to just order fuel and you are making a statement that you appreciate they are their providing us service.  If you feel you are NOT being treated fairly, find a different place to part with your money.

Tom

[kevinw]

I flew up to Flying Cloud (FCM) for the Ryder Cup in early October. I pulled into Thunderbird Aviation and on that day the ramp fee was $200. Normally it's $25. Buy 15 gallons of gas and it was waived so that's what I did. Not sure what the other FBOs charged that day but that's the highest I've come across. I will say the service was top notch. Free food and drink available and the people were very friendly. Fuel prices weren't too bad either.

[flyboy0681]

16 hours ago, gsengle said:

Also I always call ahead and understand fees before picking an airport and FBO. Free market.
 

I do the same. Last year I was picking up a buddy at an airport up near him and I called ahead to make sure that there wouldn't be a fee for simply pulling up to the ramp, shutting down and starting right up. In this case there wasn't.

I find it best to send an email so that I have a record of their official reply.