Airplane intercepted

[Danb]

I was cruising around south Delaware Saturday there was a TFR over Rehoboth on Adsb we saw so strange flight maneuvers being about 5 minutes away a plane was escorted out and away from the restricted space and seemed to be escorted to MIV. My copilot had a beam on it I was flying. I wonder what they will do with him?

[peevee]

enforcement action for sure

[ChrisH]

Surprising that they can easily find the lost 172 in a TFR, yet the guy in SC didn't see it until less than a sec before impact. 

[Marauder]

I was cruising around south Delaware Saturday there was a TFR over Rehoboth on Adsb we saw so strange flight maneuvers being about 5 minutes away a plane was escorted out and away from the restricted space and seemed to be escorted to MIV. My copilot had a beam on it I was flying. I wonder what they will do with him?

I think Joe is getting his last moving TFRs in. Wonder where the party was. I see his moving TFRs popping up a lot lately. Building up the last of those Air Force 2 frequent flyer miles.


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[M016576]

1 hour ago, ChrisH said:

Surprising that they can easily find the lost 172 in a TFR, yet the guy in SC didn't see it until less than a sec before impact. 

Is this a necessary comment?  

Do you know all the facts in either case?

what would you propose?

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, M016576 said:

Is this a necessary comment?  

Do you know all the facts in either case?

what would you propose?

As was discussed in a thread back in 2015, yes I do think the comment bears repeated discussion.  And we do have facts:

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150707X22207&key=2

The F-16 pilot was told by ATC that if he did not "have that traffic in sight turn left heading 180 immediately". He didn't, and a pilot and his father were killed.

[M016576]

5 hours ago, N1395W said:

As was discussed in a thread back in 2015, yes I do think the comment bears repeated discussion.  And we do have facts:

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150707X22207&key=2

The F-16 pilot was told by ATC that if he did not "have that traffic in sight turn left heading 180 immediately". He didn't, and a pilot and his father were killed.

Did you actually read the entire NTSB report?  If you did, it specifically sites the controllers poor separation plan.  The F-16 pilot was on an IFR clearance for an approach and was complying with ATC instructions.  He delayed 7 seconds in initiating his turn after being given a traffic point out.  The turn instructions that the controller issued are what actually put the two aircraft on a collision bearing.  The sad fact is this:

1) a pilot on an IFR approach was given a traffic point out, then a poor vector.

2) the controller realized her vector was bad, but by the time she figured it out, it was either too late, or she froze up (the ntsb report is a little fuzzy on why the controller didn't act)

3) BOTH pilots are responsible for visual lookout.  Regardless of what type of flight rules and vectors they are receiving.  Even when the information from the controller is bad.  Both pilots, and the controller all had a hand in this tragedy.  And it's all spelled out in the report.

so I ask again- what's the point of this comment above:  

"Surprising that they can easily find the lost 172 in a TFR, yet the guy in SC didn't see it until less than a sec before impact. "

The only addition I see to this thread is a cheap shot at the men and women putting their lives on the line to protect the skies, and people below them day in and day out.  Have mistakes been made in the past? Absolutely.  Will they happen again? Sadly, they probably will.  If you're mad about TFR's, your aiming your fire in the wrong direction: I promise- the last thing any fighter pilot wants to do is intercept a Cessna that inadvertently flew into a TFR.  But we don't have a choice; and we can't take the chance that you might not be a "lost 172" after all.

[Andy95W]

We may be talking at cross-purposes.  I'm not sure about the other post about the interception of the 172, but the collision with the 152 still bothers me.

Yes, I did actually read the entire NTSB report.

Frankly, I expect more from an ATP, CFI, or Air Force pilot than I do from the guy building time in a 152 with his father so he can get his Commercial license. 

And as far as the "cheap shot at the men and women putting their lives on the line to protect the skies, and the people below them...": none of that relieves the pilot/ armed forces member of his/her responsibilities.  10 years in the Army taught ME that.

Terrible tragedy. If nothing else, the Air Force should re-think its policy of allowing its pilots to conduct IFR training flights and ALSO provide their own see and avoid without an additional set of eyes (like a safety pilot).

[kpaul]

15 hours ago, N1395W said:

the Air Force should re-think its policy of allowing its pilots to conduct IFR training flights and ALSO provide their own see and avoid without an additional set of eyes (like a safety pilot).

You must be joking.  So where do you suggest the Air Force put this safety pilot in a single seat fighter?  Maybe strap him to the missile rail with a pair of binoculars and a hand held radio?  Maybe it would be better that these pilots are unable to operate in IMC.  I am sure the military can reschedule all air campaigns to align with VMC conditions.

Accidents happen, yes almost all could have been avoided, that is why the NTSB releases reports, so that we can learn from the mistakes of others and hopefully not repeat these same mistakes.

 

[rbridges]

can an F16 (or any fighter) escort a small plane out of a TFR.  Seems like they would stall at 172/152 speeds.

[Andy95W]

19 minutes ago, kpaul said:

You must be joking.  So where do you suggest the Air Force put this safety pilot in a single seat fighter?  Maybe strap him to the missile rail with a pair of binoculars and a hand held radio?  Maybe it would be better that these pilots are unable to operate in IMC.  I am sure the military can reschedule all air campaigns to align with VMC conditions.

Accidents happen, yes almost all could have been avoided, that is why the NTSB releases reports, so that we can learn from the mistakes of others and hopefully not repeat these same mistakes.

 

Here ya go:

 

Or better yet, use a simulator (the Air Force already owns a bunch, and I've heard they burn less jet fuel):

And your comment about only having air campaigns in VMC is absurd, as is having Air Force pilots who are unable to operate in IMC.

The ATC person was officially at fault, but both pilots in VMC are responsible for their own see-and-avoid.  Kinda hard to do in an F-16 while you're heads down a lot practicing IFR procedures.

[kpaul]

Just now, N1395W said:

Here ya go:

Cool, now do some research and find out just how many F-16Ds the USAF has in its inventory.  Once you have found that small number find out how many A-10s, F-22s and F-35 have two seats.  To save you time the number is ZERO. There were two A-10s with 2 seats one crashed the second is in a museum.

Sure simulators work, but that is unrealistic to expect every pilot in the military to only train IFR procedures in them due to an accident.

[M016576]

14 hours ago, rbridges said:

can an F16 (or any fighter) escort a small plane out of a TFR.  Seems like they would stall at 172/152 speeds.

Yes.  We (I fly F-15's, but same difference) fly a continuous pattern around the 172/152... think of it like a moving holding pattern.  If we need to get a pilot to divert or land somewhere, we attempt radio communication, and finally, if that doesn't work, we "headbutt" the small aircraft by breaking gently across their flight path, and possibly dispensing flares.

the procedures are all outlined by the FAA, and should be a part of every private pilots training syllabus... there is a link on this board somewhere to the FAA section that has training materials on "what to do if you're intercepted," but I don't have that link in front of me.  I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: link to FAA intercept procedures

https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2015/media/Intercept-Procedures.pdf

Edited November 22, 2016 by M016576

[KSMooniac]

Do the military planes, and especially the fast movers, show up on ADS-B traffic displays? I've always wondered if they have conventional transponders and now ADS-B Out compliant hardware.

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[Danb]

3 hours ago, rbridges said:

can an F16 (or any fighter) escort a small plane out of a TFR.  Seems like they would stall at 172/152 speeds.

Actually it was escorted out by a Blackhawk or other type of chopper. I did have the  chopper on adsb

 

[kpaul]

Mil aircraft will likely only show up on ADS-B if the ATC radar injects the track into the system.  They use a different transponder that allows codes to be set for Mode 1, 2, 3, and 4 to include encryption.

[bonal]

Something I've wondered perhaps you military pilots can answer. Do you ever run interception flights on un suspecting GA or commercial flights.  A couple times when I have been over flying Travis and talking to Travis approach after I clear their AS I have noticed a single seat fighter dropping out from behind me. By the time I see him he is way below pulling out of an obvious dive. 

And thank you for all you guys and gals do serving our nation

[Hank]

I was followed once by a Blackhawk. Didn't know he was there until I entered the pattern, looked at the windsock, decided I was on upwind and turned around. He sidestepped out of my way,watched me land, and when I taxied to parking, there he was again. Of course, I was flying IFR behind a line if storms, extending my destination as the weather cleared. To reach to unattended grass strip just outside Camp Lejeune . . . If they'd have asked, I'd have played with them and given them a harder job of tracking than following somebody in straight, level flight followed by straight, 500 fpm descent. Would have been fun!

Also had F-18s make a formation knife edge pass in front of me as I went just under the floor of an MOA (also in an IFR flight plan in beautiful weather); a few minutes later they shot by again, left to right, inverted. Wish I'd had a camera ready for them! They must have been right at the floor, nice and big and clear. And fast.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Hank

[Bravoman]

If you inadvertently enter a TFR and are escorted out I wonder if filing a NASA form would be of any utility in preventing possible sanctions? Or is this type of thing an excepted type of event like a deviation leading to an incident or accident?

[M016576]

8 hours ago, bonal said:

Something I've wondered perhaps you military pilots can answer. Do you ever run interception flights on un suspecting GA or commercial flights.  A couple times when I have been over flying Travis and talking to Travis approach after I clear their AS I have noticed a single seat fighter dropping out from behind me. By the time I see him he is way below pulling out of an obvious dive. 

And thank you for all you guys and gals do serving our nation

Nope- that is forbidden by USAF and USN regulations if we are outside of a MOA.

by military regulation, we have to fly IFR to the max extent practical, and we are held to the same IFR regulations as every other aircraft.  We are allowed to proceed VFR if required by training, but unauthorized intercepts of unaware aircraft, and more specifically airliners (where we could unintentionally set off their TCAS) are prohibited.  

if you are flying in a MOA that has active fighters in it, though, you may be intercepted unintentionally (at least until the fighter pilot gains a visual tally); as they are possibly training against other aircraft in an air to air role- and your plane might be mistaken for "red air."  If the fighter pilot sees you in a MOA, and identifies your aircraft- your safety as well as his/her own is their top priority... if an unsafe act were to occur; the ramifications would be dire to the military pilot (and they probably wouldn't be a military pilot much longer).  Flight safety is not something taken lightly, and there is no room for unsafe behaviors and/or attitudes in our culture.  Our job is dangerous enough as it is.

what you might be seeing is an aircraft on a visual initial, or combat initial into the field.  Most fighters talk exclusively on UHF frequencies, so you may not be hearing their conversations with ATC.  I can't speak to helicopters.

the question came up about transponders-

when flying in the US, one fighter in the formation will always have a Mode 3/C transponder on.  The fighter fleets are all in varying levels of modification to meet the 2020 ADSB requirements- we will all be required to have ADSB out... just like GA aircraft, and should show up on any ADSB traffic systems.  The F-15C isn't ADSB out vetted yet (but it's in progress)- I can't speak to the F-16; which is the other fighter you might see intercept you (F-18's / F-22's don't perform ADS alert, and F-35's haven't been stood up for that mission yet).

from a speed standpoint, unless I've got fuel to burn and a compelling reason to "go really fast", normally fighters fly a maximum range profile to and from the training airspace- that's about 320KIAS in the F-18 and F-15- so not really much different than most business jets.  Of course, there are times where you'll see jets much faster than that- but over land we are restricted from supersonic flight unless in a dedicated training area.  

Edited November 22, 2016 by M016576

[M016576]

2 hours ago, Bravoman said:

If you inadvertently enter a TFR and are escorted out I wonder if filing a NASA form would be of any utility in preventing possible sanctions? Or is this type of thing an excepted type of event like a deviation leading to an incident or accident?

It probably couldn't hurt- it shows that you realize you made a mistake after the fact and that could be favorable to your case if you found yourself "at the end of the long table."  I'm not exactly sure how these are handled these days.

Edited November 22, 2016 by M016576

[bonal]

Thank you for your reply to my question. The Travis controllers are always friendly and helpful.

[M016576]

10 hours ago, bonal said:

Thank you for your reply to my question. The Travis controllers are always friendly and helpful.

Honestly- thank you for the questions.  Sometimes I forget that the world of military aviation can be kind of a black hole to other pilots.  Once we all understand what the other guys are doing; it tends to clear up confusion and bad or ill conceived perceptions (and the door swings both ways: I do spend time in pilot meetings at work describing GA concerns when they arise, as not all military pilots actively fly GA).  I'm happy to help answer any questions and maybe fill in some of the "why's":  knowledge helps make us all safer, and better pilots.

[carusoam]

Thanks, Job!

Your insight is greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

-a-

[peevee]

when I renewed my CFI, AOPA had a good video from a 182 or similar showing what it looks like to get intercepted. I'm sure george can point us to it if it's available anywhere else