Airplane intercepted

[peevee]

On 11/22/2016 at 3:45 AM, M016576 said:

Nope- that is forbidden by USAF and USN regulations if we are outside of a MOA.

by military regulation, we have to fly IFR to the max extent practical, and we are held to the same IFR regulations as every other aircraft.  We are allowed to proceed VFR if required by training, but unauthorized intercepts of unaware aircraft, and more specifically airliners (where we could unintentionally set off their TCAS) are prohibited.  

if you are flying in a MOA that has active fighters in it, though, you may be intercepted unintentionally (at least until the fighter pilot gains a visual tally); as they are possibly training against other aircraft in an air to air role- and your plane might be mistaken for "red air."  If the fighter pilot sees you in a MOA, and identifies your aircraft- your safety as well as his/her own is their top priority... if an unsafe act were to occur; the ramifications would be dire to the military pilot (and they probably wouldn't be a military pilot much longer).  Flight safety is not something taken lightly, and there is no room for unsafe behaviors and/or attitudes in our culture.  Our job is dangerous enough as it is.

what you might be seeing is an aircraft on a visual initial, or combat initial into the field.  Most fighters talk exclusively on UHF frequencies, so you may not be hearing their conversations with ATC.  I can't speak to helicopters.

the question came up about transponders-

when flying in the US, one fighter in the formation will always have a Mode 3/C transponder on.  The fighter fleets are all in varying levels of modification to meet the 2020 ADSB requirements- we will all be required to have ADSB out... just like GA aircraft, and should show up on any ADSB traffic systems.  The F-15C isn't ADSB out vetted yet (but it's in progress)- I can't speak to the F-16; which is the other fighter you might see intercept you (F-18's / F-22's don't perform ADS alert, and F-35's haven't been stood up for that mission yet).

from a speed standpoint, unless I've got fuel to burn and a compelling reason to "go really fast", normally fighters fly a maximum range profile to and from the training airspace- that's about 320KIAS in the F-18 and F-15- so not really much different than most business jets.  Of course, there are times where you'll see jets much faster than that- but over land we are restricted from supersonic flight unless in a dedicated training area.  

Just stop with the useless ALTRVs, file and fly and random refuel. You don't need an ALTRV. They're outdated and you don't follow the route anyway, cancelling the ALTRV as soon as you depart the filed route or altitudes.

Most fighters and b2's are UHF, the controller should turn off the VHF transmitters when broadcasting to a UHF, most don't, so you'll usually hear one side of the convo. Military callsigns are easy to pick out. If you hear "death one one" or "honeybadger tree four" etc. Something like reach five five will be VHF.

Edited November 23, 2016 by peevee

[Bob - S50]

9 minutes ago, peevee said:

Just stop with the useless ALTRVs, file and fly and random refuel. You don't need an ALTRV. They're outdated and you don't follow the route anyway, cancelling the ALTRV as soon as you depart the filed route or altitudes.

Most fighters and b2's are UHF, the controller should turn off the VHF transmitters when broadcasting to a UHF, most don't, so you'll usually hear one side of the convo. Military callsigns are easy to pick out. If you hear "death one one" or "honeybadger tree four" etc. Something like reach five five will be VHF.

It's pretty rare that they will be refueling at an altitude that matters to the average Mooney driver.  From what I remember, we used to like refueling in the mid 20's.

[kpaul]

Just now, Bob - S50 said:

It's pretty rare that they will be refueling at an altitude that matters to the average Mooney driver.  From what I remember, we used to like refueling in the mid 20's.

Bob,

That depends on the aircraft being refueled.  C-130s are refueled lower and generally in a dive so the Herk is fast enough for the tanker.  Additionally, if it is helos being refueled it will be low altitude.  The fighters will be higher since they are much more efficient at high altitudes.

[peevee]

1 minute ago, Bob - S50 said:

It's pretty rare that they will be refueling at an altitude that matters to the average Mooney driver.  From what I remember, we used to like refueling in the mid 20's.

this has nothing to do with flying a mooney. it has to do with wasting a lot of resources used to process an antiquated concept.

[peevee]

Just now, kpaul said:

Bob,

That depends on the aircraft being refueled.  C-130s are refueled lower and generally in a dive so the Herk is fast enough for the tanker.  Additionally, if it is helos being refueled it will be low altitude.  The fighters will be higher since they are much more efficient at high altitudes.

the fighters rarely go up high. They hang out at 240-260 usually.

[kpaul]

3 hours ago, peevee said:

the fighters rarely go up high. They hang out at 240-260 usually.

Yeah, I was responding to Bob's comment about refueling altitudes and Mooney's.  So yes, that is high altitude for a Mooney, hence not a factor.

Also, as a military pilot (TAC-A) I have a pretty good idea where the different platforms prefer to operate within the airspace.

 

[M016576]

On 11/23/2016 at 8:10 AM, peevee said:

this has nothing to do with flying a mooney. it has to do with wasting a lot of resources used to process an antiquated concept.

the only times I've ever had an ALTRV for refueling was a transit between Iceland and Oregon.  If it were up to me, I'd go for the simpler option of just refueling wherever we please.  These days- with the big wings, I'm mostly tanking in a FAA-designated AAR track.  That's a fairly useful piece of exclusive airspace, as we tend to join 10-15 fighters on 1-2 tankers in a relatively small area.  

As posted above- with fighters, we tend to be in the mid 20's for refueling.

all the "military" airspace, ATCAAS, MOA's and restricted areas is actually designated and approved by the FAA.  As a military entity, we just request what we would like: it's the FAA that takes it away or gives it to us.... and also activates it if we request the airspace- which, if we don't activate on a certain timeline, we as military members can be denied operations in "our own airspace" (although that is rare).

[peevee]

Almost all of the wings file altrvs for deployments. They're completely unnecessary. 

I'm well aware how sua airspace works, thanks. And no, the faa doesn't "take it away"  it's a very lengthy process and usually only if it hasn't been used in a decade or so. 

The airspace requests go through sams or maid, depending ding which side you're on and the times of eligibility and advance notice are per loa. 

Edited November 26, 2016 by peevee

[M016576]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

Almost all of the wings file altrvs for deployments. They're completely unnecessary. 

I'm well aware how sua airspace works, thanks. And no, the faa doesn't "take it away"  it's a very lengthy process and usually only if it hasn't been used in a decade or so. 

The airspace requests go through sams or maid, depending ding which side you're on and the times of eligibility and advance notice are per loa. 

My wording was poor- by "take it away", I meant the airspace goes cold.

I agree about ALTRV's.  when I was in the Navy, we never used them.  Now that I'm in the air force, we (the royal we... I've only used one personally once) use them any time we move jets with a big wing tanker.  The big wing tanker guys, and a flight planning group, schedule all this stuff and do mandatory planning / briefings for the fighter pilots.  Again- personally, I'd rather do all the planning myself (which I do, on top of the briefings), USAF regs, though, get tons of "extra" people involved.  That's part of the reason why, when I was flying Hornets, we (again, the royal we... Naval Aviatior style) had the distinct impression that USAF pilots were "spoiled."