I can't stop fidgeting....... What should I do????

[xcrmckenna]

um technically the things you listed are not "airworthy" items.  If the metal in the filter is more than a teaspoon, then that would be airworthy. The tanks can leak a certain amount before they become airworthy issues.  Not say that you should not walk this one.   Just that you are buying a 40 year old mechanical device.   you should have 10K ready to spend on it no matter what you buy.

I just meant there are airworthy items and those other items.


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[xcrmckenna]

The owner slept on it and contacted me with another sale price this morning. The drop was less than half what a full strip and seal will cost at Advance aviation that does a weep no more style seal. It doesn't come close to a possible engine with the metal found, the a/p fix and some other items. I guess it all comes down to betting on when you roll a seven. Any advice?


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[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, xcrmckenna said:

The owner slept on it and contacted me with another sale price this morning. The drop was less than half what a full strip and seal will cost at Advance aviation that does a weep no more style seal. It doesn't come close to a possible engine with the metal found, the a/p fix and some other items. I guess it all comes down to betting on when you roll a seven. Any advice?


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I'd pass. But I realize you've spent a lot of time and money on the search to this point. I'd still pass.

Of course now that the results of this pre-buy are on MooneySpace, his market has shrunk significantly. And so have his chances of selling that plane for anywhere near his asking price.

[FBCK]

There is rarely such thing as a great deal, if the price is to low, its usually because the product is lacking in some way.  That's not to say something that is over priced will automatically get you quality, but $72,000 for a J would be on the lower end.  Look for something that's had the tanks done, the avionics replaced, donuts done and a good engine an pay $95k for it, it will be a lot cheaper in the longer run.

[Yetti]

You are buying it to fly.  Sounds like this plane will need an engine overhaul and you won't be flying.  mismatched goals.  

 

I thought it just had an Annual.  Why was this stuff deferred?  Not a good recipe.    What does the inspector say about the engine?  otherwise you are buying an airframe and some ebay electronics

[orionflt]

16 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Here is one to tide you over!




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Wow, she is Skinny, did you stop feeding them?

 

[kevinw]

If a turbo is a consideration there's a M20K that was just listed here on MS. 231AL for $84K

[xcrmckenna]

32 minutes ago, kevinw said:

If a turbo is a consideration there's a M20K that was just listed here on MS. 231AL for $84K

Thank you, I just looked at the ad. I'm not a huge turbo guy, and never flown one. But it looks like a nice plane. 

[xcrmckenna]

9 hours ago, FBCK said:

There is rarely such thing as a great deal, if the price is to low, its usually because the product is lacking in some way.  That's not to say something that is over priced will automatically get you quality, but $72,000 for a J would be on the lower end.  Look for something that's had the tanks done, the avionics replaced, donuts done and a good engine an pay $95k for it, it will be a lot cheaper in the longer run.

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1440429/1994-mooney-m20j-mse

 

i might have just decided to blow my budget completely....:) after the two planes listed in the $70's I'm seeing good advice in what you are saying. 

[Jeff_S]

I wasn't going to say anything along these lines, because at times past I have been accused on this forum of not respecting other people's budgets. So I do respect that you've got a budget to maintain. That said, I have always found that it's better to buy absolutely the best plane you can possibly afford if your goal it is to "buy it and fly it." There are folks who enjoy the "project" and the upgrade process and Lord knows the 40-50 year fleet needs these folks. They are the ones who create the planes that the rest of us can come in and buy later.  But if you enjoy flying rather than upgrading/maintaining, I would encourage you to stretch your budgetary ideas and see just how much you can afford, then look for the best plane possible in that bracket. Then look at one or two that are maybe just a tad higher. If you're taking out a loan, the $10-$20K difference over 20 years isn't going to change your payment that much, but you'll get a lot of enjoyment out of the plane immediately.

Just a thought...

[gsxrpilot]

I wouldn't be too quick to blow out the budget. In my humble opinion, shopping for airplanes is a unique situation in that you really don't want a "bargain". You really want to "over pay".  Certified parts are very expensive as are A&P/AI/Avionics tech's. So for airplanes in the <$100K range, maintenance and upgrades are a disproportionately high cost. In other words, it will be cheaper to "over-pay" for an airplane that is "turn-key" ready to go, then get a bargain and have to put maintenance/upgrades into it.

That same $70K will buy you an amazing E, or better yet go spend $50K on an unbelievable C and put the other $20K into 100LL. Think about what percentage of the time you'll need the leg room in the back seat. Full size people fit in the back seat of a C, they just won't be comfortable for more than 2 or 3 hours. 

I recently sold a C for $50K and often times when I pull my M20K 252 up to the pump, I wish I'd kept it.

Just my $0.02

[ArtVandelay]

Get a J, you'll never have buyers remorse.

[KLRDMD]

23 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

The owner slept on it and contacted me with another sale price this morning. The drop was less than half what a full strip and seal will cost at Advance aviation that does a weep no more style seal. It doesn't come close to a possible engine with the metal found, the a/p fix and some other items. I guess it all comes down to betting on when you roll a seven. Any advice?

Walk away.

[bonal]

Gixxer, yours was undoubtedly one of the nicest C models in the fleet and certain its new owner must be delighted with it. I'm sure you feel no regret when you play in the world of plus 200 speeds. As for XRmc I know how much you want a J but if your not going to carry back seaters often I think a top end E or perhaps a normalized F could be perfect and the F would give you same space and perhaps even more capability. 

[Browncbr1]

glad you found the metal in the filter before owning it!

 

[N9201A]

+1 on walk away unless you have the facility, ability and/or budget for a project of unknown duration...and if so, find a better one with an owner who has a more realistic view of value.

[jasona900]

8 hours ago, bonal said:

Gixxer, yours was undoubtedly one of the nicest C models in the fleet and certain its new owner must be delighted with it. I'm sure you feel no regret when you play in the world of plus 200 speeds. As for XRmc I know how much you want a J but if your not going to carry back seaters often I think a top end E or perhaps a normalized F could be perfect and the F would give you same space and perhaps even more capability. 

Yep.  I smile every time I fly it...   6XM really was turn key.  The airplane I had prior to my Mooney was a swift.  Got an OK deal on it, and what a nightmare it was after.  Put a ton of money into it, and still didn't get get back my original investment (not even close) when I sold it.   A wise man recently told me once that you pay 30 cents on the dollar for upgrades or future maintenance when you buy an airplane.  While I'm not sure the number is accurate, I think the concept sure is.

[xcrmckenna]

Well this morning I got up at six in the morning to drive my girlfriend 3 hours to bend so she could go to a doctors appointment. We did some shopping at Costco then drove another 3 hours home. It sure would have been nice if that J would of worked out and only had 40 minutes in the air each way:)

Thanks for everyone's input. I've very much enjoyed MooneySpace and I've learned a lot. If it wasn't for ms who knows how many money pits I could have bought by now.

I told the seller the leaking tanks was a deal breaker alone for me. If he paid to strip and seal them, fix most of the issues under the cowl I would would pay his new asking price. Maybe it was wrong because I knew he wouldn't except it and I should have just told him no and moved on. Needless to say we have ended negotiations and wished each other luck. When I first saw N8201B I really thought finally I had a plane. But thankfully I kept my standards.

I do want a 201 more than any other model, the time I've spent flying N1021K out of Boeing has been some of the funniest flying I have done. But that doesn't mean I would turn down a C if it was the perfect plane.

My budget is pretty much dependent on the plane at hand. I have been approved for over 6 figures but ultimately would just like to pay cash for the plane. I would like a corrosion free airframe under 3000 hours with and engine time of between 700 and 500 hours with a useful load more than 960lbs. The 77-80 J's seem to have a better ul then they start putting on the weight, or you have to ring one with the 2900 ramp weight upgrade.

AOPA's Vref listed this plane at just about $71,000 so I thought it was a fair price. I'm however not looking to pay for the last ten years of deferred maintenance from the last owner unless they are going to take that off of the sale price. And Derek was not willing to.

I look forward to working on my own plane so getting my hands dirty don't bother me yet I'm far from and a&p. So I just want to know what I'm getting into. But typically someone is selling a cheep plane for a reason.


I'm going to broaden my views some to more expensive J's and C,E, and F's. They ere is a great looking 1976 C model on Barnstormer for $47,000. It looks very well equipped. And that 1994 blue 201 I posted earlier in this thread that I'm going to contact the owners.

Thanks again everyone:)



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[ArtVandelay]

Why the 3000 airframe hour limit? The planes you are looking at are well over 30 years old, so you are purposely looking for a plane that hasn't been flown much, I think this is a mistake, these airframes don't have a TBO limit.
And the more expensive the base model is the more you can recoup your upgrades, because there is more of an upside.

[xcrmckenna]

8 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Why the 3000 airframe hour limit? The planes you are looking at are well over 30 years old, so you are purposely looking for a plane that hasn't been flown much, I think this is a mistake, these airframes don't have a TBO limit.
And the more expensive the base model is the more you can recoup your upgrades, because there is more of an upside.

The only reason that number sticks with me is it narrows the search down, and I've noticed planes that have 5000 or 7000 sit for sale for a long time. I know Mooneys have a great airframe and I shouldn't be afraid of those hours but I think resale of the higher hours are harder. I would also like a plane that wasn't a rental. But I know that has its good and bad. Good because it was being flown regularly, but bad cuz the care of flight might not always be there. I want the unicorn that had a loving owner that flew it 75-100 hours a year and was  meticulous with the upkeep:) I am open to a high hour airframe as long as the shock disks had been replaced regularly the operating systems had been overhauled "Boost pump, vacuum pump, landing gear actuator, and so on" not just replaced because they are planning on selling it, again I don't want to pay for a lot of differed maintenance that should of been done but Wasn't because they didn't care. And I would rather have a plane with original paint with a few flakes missing then a plane with new paint less than a year ago that they have for sale today. 

 

[DXB]

I think the actual number of hours on airframe is pretty far down the list of considerations for a Mooney.  And I bet a really nice one with higher time still sells fast- and might even be a bargain based on its lower valuation.   My priorities in order, based on experience of my own purchase where I didn't get it quite right, would be:

1. immaculate airframe from corrosion perspective

2. low-ish time engine flown regularly without any hint of problems, or maybe a run out engine priced accordingly assuming it's still going strong

3. no major damage history (well repaired gear up is ok) / quality of any repair if there is any damage history at all.

4. nicest avionics possible

5. tanks in good shape, or bladders installed

6. paint and interior

7. Donuts, hoses  changed at appropriate times, 500hr mag irans, AD and SB compliance, etc  - i.e. evidence someone cares about maintenance and has been on top of stuff

8. Some speed mods for the vintage planes

Come to think of it, not sure total time on airfame would even make the list of concerns.

 

[JKSmith]

My instructor sold his "G" for 30k here recently. It was the reason I bought mine, it had over 8,000 airframe hours and was well taken care of. I think every pilot in my area has flown it too. from hitting deer on landing and a lot of rough landings its durability and continuous longevity has convinced me that any mooney is a fine built aircraft and has kept buyers remorse off my back. 

[Joe Larussa]

Owning an airplane isn't cheap. Your going to pay now or pay later but your going to pay in the end. I bought my J a year ago and immediately put 60,000 into it. I did do a prebuy and knew I was in for a new engine and paid accordingly. Once you get started it's hard to go back. If I were to do it again I would pay more for a plane that was done, however  I would consider my plane done and it still surprises me and my bank account!

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

I paid just under $70,000 for my 201 in December.  3300 TT, 330 SFRM, the avionics are OK, (GX-60, SL-30, older Narco for the rest), the interior was a 2-3 out of 10, paint excellent, tank reseal almost out of warranty, (so good), no corrosion + it had treatment, lots of speed mods.  In 50 hours flying, I may have put in 2 or 3 quarts of oil.  Even though I did not see problems during the pre-buy, my first annual is about $10,000; $2600 for the annual and the rest for little things, (placards, seat belts, etc.).  Some of that might be using a mechanic 2 blocks from the FSDO.  I was somewhat less disappointed when the mechanic pointed to another J-model that was getting a $30,000 annual.

Did I get a 'good deal'?  I do not know.  At any rate, there will be things wrong with almost any plane, even when it looks good.

[thinwing]

On September 27, 2016 at 7:13 PM, xcrmckenna said:

After that, what plane?????


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I bet that Gal really floats!