Let's play the IFR GPS game

[N9453V]

5 hours ago, cnoe said:

That makes sense; you basically reduce the number of instruments in your scan. I can see how that would make hand-flying approaches easier.

I renewed currency last weekend too but had to do it under the hood as we haven't had ceilings below the FAF altitude for days. It sucks how you can build time in "actual" and still struggle to remain "current".

I often practice "coupled" approaches VFR flying solo just to stay on top of the AP nuances, but when I have a safety pilot I prefer to hand-fly for proficiency.

Thanks for the offer, I'll likely take you up on that sometime.

If you routinely hand fly approaches right down to minimums (which you should do for proficiency for WHEN the autopilot breaks), the HSI becomes more of a need than a want. I've got a fair bit of G1000 time and some Aspen time as well, but I honestly don't really care for glass panels. When I'm ferrying an airplane without an HSI and I need to go down to minimums, I'm cursing the crappy avionics the whole way down.

-Andrew

[Marauder]

25 minutes ago, N9453V said:

, I understand that a lot of people like glass panels, but saying they are more economical is rather disingenuous in my opinion. An overhauled KCS-55A with warranty is $7k tops, can be found used for probably $2k and overhauled for another $2k... an Aspen Pro is $11k and is MUCH more expensive to install.

Anyone flying hard IFR pretty much needs an HSI... an Aspen doesn't give you any more capability to justify the cost and the reliability is very suspect (https://bonanza.org/forums/index.php?topic=1273.0). I considered replacing my KCS-55A when the gyro needed an overhaul; the avionics shop in Conroe, TX advised against it, saying that they'd had numerous customers who'd been through 3 or more replacements in under 1 year. In 6 years of using a KCS-55A and around 1100 hours of hard IFR, I've only had 1 $600 repair on the unit. 

-Andrew

I think jclemens's point that if you were to install an HSI (presumably new), there are other alternatives. Purchased at the right time (rebates, sales incentives) you can buy an Aspen for a lot less than $11k. TWinters is having one installed now for $8,700. Mine was in that ballpark as well in 2012. Where I think people become confused is the collective features versus looking at it as a replacement option for the HSI. If I had an HSI in 2012, I most likely would have not upgraded to an Aspen. But since I didn't, the Aspen offset the cost of installing a GI-106 and living with the DG (something that I had for the 21 years up to that point). But along with the HSI that I did need to display the new GTN's signal, came a whole lot more (GPSS, RMIs, backup ASI, backup AI, backup altimeter, battery backup, moving map, ability to display my StormScope, winds aloft, temperature, VSI, backup GPS to keep the flight plan alive and data packets from the GPS).  

Each owner needs to decide what is right for them. In order to do that, it does involve looking at all the details of what you are buying. For me personally I don't look back for a minute because I feel that the value for me was well worth the cost.

[Bob_Belville]

51 minutes ago, N9453V said:

Remember the GDL88 is only UAT, so you're restricted to flying below FL180 and may face restrictions operating internationally.

-Andrew

Yeah,well, my M20E, your M20G, and Becca's M20J, are not terribly inconvenienced to stay below FL 180.  

[N9453V]

17 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah,well, my M20E, your M20G, and Becca's M20J, are not terribly inconvenienced to stay below FL 180.  

Yes, but some of us fly internationally a lot... the only countries adopting UAT are the US and China. Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, etc have said they'll only use 1090 ES.

-Andrew

[gsengle]

Use, but will they require?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[N9453V]

Just now, gsengle said:

Use, but will they require?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unclear at this point... the FAA has said from the beginning they have said that all aircraft operating internationally should equip with 1090 ES.

-Andrew

[KSMooniac]

1 hour ago, N9453V said:

I understand that a lot of people like glass panels, but saying they are more economical is rather disingenuous in my opinion. An overhauled KCS-55A with warranty is $7k tops, can be found used for probably $2k and overhauled for another $2k... an Aspen Pro is $11k and is MUCH more expensive to install.

I'd hazard a guess that installing an Aspen is much cheaper (installation hours) into a plane without an HSI than a KCS-55A system that requires the remote gyro in the tail and the magnetometer in the wing.  The Aspen only requires an antenna on top.  Both will have similar connections to avionics on the panel.  There was an installed quote for a new Aspen at $9k here earlier as well.  I'd much rather take my chances with a new Aspen than any old King stuff...

I'd pick:

PSE audio panel,

Engine monitor... EDM-730 at a minimum, but since the whole panel is getting worked I'd choose an EDM-900 or -930 if space allows

large-screen GPS (IFD-540 or GTN-750 depending on your religion),

keep an old nav/com for #2 or else pick a modern nav/com if keeping a budget, otherwise a small-screen GPS.

PFD...today I'd choose Aspen.  Actually, I'd wait til OSH and see what gets announced that is new and/or on sale

transponder...not sure!  Lots of choices for ADS-B functionality, so choice depends on PFD and GPS choices

[bradp]

For those of us who routinely fly IFR without an HSI but who do have a GPS (i.e. 430/530W) and a GI-106 or equivalent indicator and a DG.  This is a trick I learned from my buddy Keith Smith who has a similar setup and flies all over the country IFR in a lancair 360 with the same setup... display both your Desired Track and your Track front and center on your GPS.  It pulls your scan slightly out laterally away from the 6 pack, but gives you HSI-like situational awareness without the HSI.  Turn until your DTK matches the TRK.  Set your DG heading bug.  Minor corrections ensue and you can easily fly approaches to minimums with your GI-106. 

This does require numerical data interpretation instead of an analogue view of the world (HSI), but it works well. 

For the slight about the gender of the OP... I have one partner in the airplane instead of two.  She is not a pilot.  However, she has all the votes in terms of discretionary spending on the bird. 

[KSMooniac]

Brad, I have exactly that setup and I'll even make it easier... you can set a data field called Track Angle Error and it gives you the data you described but in one field with no interpretation necessary.  I put this field on my 530W in the center stack and it is easy to steal a glance there.  My 430W on the right stack lives on NAV 1 page with 6 other data fields typically, but it is too far away to easily monitor on approach for me.

[cnoe]

For those of us who routinely fly IFR without an HSI but who do have a GPS (i.e. 430/530W) and a GI-106 or equivalent indicator and a DG.  This is a trick I learned from my buddy Keith Smith who has a similar setup and flies all over the country IFR in a lancair 360 with the same setup... display both your Desired Track and your Track front and center on your GPS.  It pulls your scan slightly out laterally away from the 6 pack, but gives you HSI-like situational awareness without the HSI.  Turn until your DTK matches the TRK.  Set your DG heading bug.  Minor corrections ensue and you can easily fly approaches to minimums with your GI-106. 

I agree. Flying approaches with an HSI seems less difficult than using a GNS-530W, DG, and a GI-106. But I never thought lacking one was a big deal and I would be hard pressed to call it a "need". I'm also looking forward to adding GPSS roll steering at some point too, but neither do I consider that a "need".

If I was upgrading today I'd probably add the Aspen giving me both, but until the Part 23 shake-out takes place I'll play wait and see.

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

For those of us who routinely fly IFR without an HSI but who do have a GPS (i.e. 430/530W) and a GI-106 or equivalent indicator and a DG.  This is a trick I learned from my buddy Keith Smith who has a similar setup and flies all over the country IFR in a lancair 360 with the same setup... display both your Desired Track and your Track front and center on your GPS.  It pulls your scan slightly out laterally away from the 6 pack, but gives you HSI-like situational awareness without the HSI.  Turn until your DTK matches the TRK.  Set your DG heading bug.  Minor corrections ensue and you can easily fly approaches to minimums with your GI-106. 

This does require numerical data interpretation instead of an analogue view of the world (HSI), but it works well. 

For the slight about the gender of the OP... I have one partner in the airplane instead of two.  She is not a pilot.  However, she has all the votes in terms of discretionary spending on the bird. 

 

56 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Brad, I have exactly that setup and I'll even make it easier... you can set a data field called Track Angle Error and it gives you the data you described but in one field with no interpretation necessary.  I put this field on my 530W in the center stack and it is easy to steal a glance there.  My 430W on the right stack lives on NAV 1 page with 6 other data fields typically, but it is too far away to easily monitor on approach for me.

Easier yet, you can bring up a HSI on both the 430 and 650 (I assume most others as well)  That way there is no interpreting direction of arrows or track vs. heading, just center up the GPS displayed HSI.

[cnoe]

To be accurate the Garmin 430/530 units will display a CDI but not an HSI. It's great for enroute or even terminal navigation but lacking a GS/GP indicator its usefulness is limited on precision or LPV approaches.

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[N9453V]

5 hours ago, bradp said:

For those of us who routinely fly IFR without an HSI but who do have a GPS (i.e. 430/530W) and a GI-106 or equivalent indicator and a DG.  This is a trick I learned from my buddy Keith Smith who has a similar setup and flies all over the country IFR in a lancair 360 with the same setup... display both your Desired Track and your Track front and center on your GPS.  It pulls your scan slightly out laterally away from the 6 pack, but gives you HSI-like situational awareness without the HSI.  Turn until your DTK matches the TRK.  Set your DG heading bug.  Minor corrections ensue and you can easily fly approaches to minimums with your GI-106. 

This does require numerical data interpretation instead of an analogue view of the world (HSI), but it works well. 

For the slight about the gender of the OP... I have one partner in the airplane instead of two.  She is not a pilot.  However, she has all the votes in terms of discretionary spending on the bird. 

How does that give HSI-like situational awareness? Adding the 430W/530W into your scan for a precision approach inside of the FAF actually increases pilot workload instead of decreasing it. The CDI on the 430W/530W is really just a backup of your physical CDI fails and shouldn't be used for flying an approach under normal circumstances.

An HSI overlays both CDI and glideslope over your heading indication, neither of which are shown on the 430W/530W. Many studies have shown that the HSI dramatically reduces pilot workload.

-Andrew

[jetdriven]

12 minutes ago, N9453V said:

How does that give HSI-like situational awareness? Adding the 430W/530W into your scan for a precision approach inside of the FAF actually increases pilot workload instead of decreasing it. The CDI on the 430W/530W is really just a backup of your physical CDI fails and shouldn't be used for flying an approach under normal circumstances.

An HSI overlays both CDI and glideslope over your heading indication, neither of which are shown on the 430W/530W. Many studies have shown that the HSI dramatically reduces pilot workload.

-Andrew

I agree, iPads and GPS screens with virtual HSI's arent useful inside the FAF on a real IFR approach. 

[jetdriven]

So whats the bottom price to get a /G WAAS navigator out the door?

Audio panel, G430W with indicator? Whats that going to cost?  Here's a guess...

 

Audio Panel, new - 1500$ and up

G430W, used  7000$

Indicator, used -  1500$

10K, plus installation, I think I hear 3 grand for the radio, and ~500$  for the audio panel?

13,500.  plus the install kit, so 14 grand laid in, does this sound right?

And for this, we have a 430 installed into the 1977 wiring, this wont be a complete spaghetti replacement like I see guys getting done.  It will still have a KX-170B #2 radio, and a KT-76A transponder.

530W add 1000$, seems like more screen for a little more cash.

 

GTN-650 is 9750$ new, plus all the above, so $16,250. Too bad the interface for entering data is just plain awful. Have any of you flown these things?

iFD-540 is 13,500 new.  a smooth 20K

GTN-750 is 14,500 new.  21K. 

does this sound like what folks are paying?

 

[jclemens]

15 hours ago, N9453V said:

I understand that a lot of people like glass panels, but saying they are more economical is rather disingenuous in my opinion. An overhauled KCS-55A with warranty is $7k tops, can be found used for probably $2k and overhauled for another $2k... an Aspen Pro is $11k and is MUCH more expensive to install.

Anyone flying hard IFR pretty much needs an HSI... an Aspen doesn't give you any more capability to justify the cost and the reliability is very suspect (https://bonanza.org/forums/index.php?topic=1273.0). I considered replacing my KCS-55A when the gyro needed an overhaul; the avionics shop in Conroe, TX advised against it, saying that they'd had numerous customers who'd been through 3 or more replacements in under 1 year. In 6 years of using a KCS-55A and around 1100 hours of hard IFR, I've only had 1 $600 repair on the unit. 

-Andrew

You are the exception, not the norm.  In my experience the reliability of an KCS55 once it has been overhauled is about as good as a pass line bet on a craps table.  Now I love me some craps, but those odds aren't that great if your in the soup.  The original units were as reliable as any gyro driven device could be.  My sources (Shops that actually have the capability to overhaul that unit) tell me that the parts they are forced to use are simply junk.  Think tiny little gimbals and bearings spinning at insane speeds that all came from China.  It's not the overhaulers fault, a lot of places that have the authority to do so have stopped maintaining the units because they know they are forced to return to service an inferior product.  They are tired of dealing with warranty issues on units they have repaired when the .02 cent bearings fail in 20 hours.  Those .02 bearings are of course issued an 8130 by Honeywell (Bendix-King) and marked up the requisite 2000%.  

Installation of an Aspen in a panel that has a standard six pack is easier than installing a KCS55 HSI from scratch.  The equipment will cost you more, but the labor will be less.

[jclemens]

The interface on the Garmin GTN's is nowhere close to awful. It only takes a few flights to fall in love with it.  You can get a GTN750, GTX345, Aspen Pro, and a new GNC255 nav/com all installed for $40K.  Probably include a new audio panel at that price point too.

[carusoam]

Counterpoint... HSI (Because I am a CB)

 

Back in the day... The HSI was so cool.  Your mind could picture exactly where you were.  The DME's awkward slant range distance is a great example of precise vs accurate. Precise to a tenth of a mile, accuracy is off by a mile and a half when flying 8,000' directly over the VOR...

Or go Aspen... The HD screen puts a picture on your IP and shows you exactly where the terrain and traffic are hiding along with your next waypoint and an arrow depicting magnitude and direction the wind is blowing...

My fancy watch has been replaced by a Fitbit.  Digital watch, step counter and the all important HR monitor... It updates everything all the time while being connected (through my cell phone) to the Internet of things (IOT).  It even let's me know when the finance administrator is calling...

Save your mind for the really important things... Informed Decisions.

1) Lowest cost WAAS navigator - 430W, nearing the end of it's tremendous run.  Old screen technology, slow computing speed, short on memory.  Not getting any better.... Throwing new money after old... Great if you need it today, but not so future proof.

2) Medium cost - Avidyne WAAS navigators IFD 440, at the beginning of a tremendous run? Wifi, BT, keyboard, touchscreen, Simpson Bennet...

3) Full on cost - GTN750 with remote boxes on the shelf in the back, proven history no longer in the early innings.

If I was in a partnership with an engineer, and an airline pilot, I would want them to push the best solution for the next 10 years.  If we get lucky, it will be upgradable for the next 10 years...

Getting it wrong, get a new system that is airframe dependent, G1000 style.  

PP thoughts of the day. My non-WAAS navigator is 20 years old, has a monochrome screen, and has recently run out of memory for a full database.  BK still supports it! 

I hope you guys find the logic to select the GTN with remote boxes...

Best regards,

-a-

[Godfather]

7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Audio Panel, new - 1500$ and up

G430W, used  7000$

Indicator, used -  1500$

10K, plus installation, I think I hear 3 grand for the radio, and ~500$  for the audio panel?

13,500.  plus the install kit, so 14 grand laid in, does this sound right?

GTN-650 is 9750$ new, plus all the above, so $16,250. Too bad the interface for entering data is just plain awful. Have any of you flown these things?

The 650 is a huge upgrade over the 430w.  I personally think the 430 -> 650 interface is similar to blackberry -> iPhone interface. If you buy a new 650 your dealer is making another $1500+ on the sale of the unit.  Find a dealer that will discount the install by that much making the difference the same as one fix on the 430.

that being said I would not have a problem buying a used 340 audio panel...should be easy to find under $1k.

[Bob - S50]

22 hours ago, cnoe said:

That makes sense; you basically reduce the number of instruments in your scan.

Not only does it result in one less instrument to scan, you can visually see your intercept angle instead of needing to visualize it or do math in your head.  The last airplane I flew that didn't have an HSI was the T37.  Same with a flight director.  Once you've flown with one you can never go back.

[PTK]

On May 10, 2016 at 2:36 PM, N9453V said:

Becca, I bought my plane with a GNS 430W, S-Tec 50 and KCS-55A HSI, so all I had to do is add a GTX 330 ES Transponder to comply with ADS-B Out.

If I had a plan equipped like yours, I'd probably go with a GTN 650 (since long term support for the 430W is uncertain), a GTX 335 ESI like my KCS-55A and it's been extremely reliable for the 6 years I've had it).

Personally, I have no interest in glass panels, since they add no additional capability. For ADS-B In, if I recall you had a portable Garmin and Garmin UAT receiver, so I'd probably leave that as is.

I don't remember what autopilot you guys have, but if you don't have altitude hold, I'd personally prioritize that before anything else (once you have WAAS approach capability and ADS-B Out compliance).

-Andrew

This is wisdom. Very well said.

I would only add that glass, especially Aspen, in addition to not adding any additional capability is actually a liability. I personally don't regard the add ons like gpss, air data etc. as a plus. Putting all eggs in one basket is not considered wise. I cringe when people's lives depend on these things in IMC.

Although anything can fail, I have no knowledge of any G500 failures. Aspen is a different story.

[cnoe]

22 hours ago, cnoe said: That makes sense; you basically reduce the number of instruments in your scan.

Not only does it result in one less instrument to scan, you can visually see your intercept angle instead of needing to visualize it or do math in your head. 

Thanks for the comments Bob.

In spite of my not having an HSI it appears they do lessen the workload some on an IFR approach. But I'm curious about your "intercept angle" statement. I assume you're referring to a course interception outside the FAF, and that inside the FAF you're flying the needles just like me? I'm just trying to get a firm grasp on the advantages here.

Outside the FAF the 530W does a fine job of depicting my course intercept visually on the default NAV page. In any case I can't see dropping 5-7 AMU on a used HSI to replace my GI-106. Besides I plan to replace all my avionics with Google's new "Autonomous Flight System" in a couple of years anyway!

[glafaille]

You gents are all wound up about which navigator is best and Aspens while forgetting the OP is relying on a Century II autopilot.

Personally, I would place a higher priority on an autopilot upgrade over an Aspen, HSI or the latest and greatest WAAS navigator. 

It may be foolish to do anything right now anyway.  The avionics upgrade world may encounter massive changes with the new Part 23.  It could cost much less to upgrade after the new regs come out.

[glafaille]

Dupelicate post

[jetdriven]

36 minutes ago, glafaille said:

You gents are all wound up about which navigator is best and Aspens while forgetting the OP is relying on a Century II autopilot.

Personally, I would place a higher priority on an autopilot upgrade over an Aspen, HSI or the latest and greatest WAAS navigator. 

It may be foolish to do anything right now anyway.  The avionics upgrade world may encounter massive changes with the new Part 23.  It could cost much less to upgrade after the new regs come out.

The Century IIB autopilot has been working great. It keeps the needle centered and the ALT30 altitude holder does great too.  For now, I think the money is better spent on a GPS and perhaps a real glass engine monitor before spending 20K to get the ability to do a coupled approach.