Should I Buy?

[Kejidog]

Hello Users

 

This is my very first post to this site. I just signed up tonight looking for some good information. I am reading lots of posts and hope i put this in the right subfourm.

 

I am considering purchasing my first ever aircraft. I was hoping to do this one time only and have set my search for a good used Mooney. I have found a  1969 M20G with a high hour  Lycoming o-360 with 2024 hours SMOH. It seems to be a good runner with compression @ 75,77,78,77 at last Annual Aug 15, No tank leaks. All AD's done. 4000 TTAF and flown regularly and quite recently. 2 owners since new and always hangared. Looks like a clean well cared for plane. Well at least from the pictures i have seen anyways. Perfect for my family and the type of cross country flying i envision myself doing. I am a shift worker with lots of free time and finances to get up in the air hopefully as often as my family allows me. 

My question(s) is, would it be worthwhile to purchase this aircraft for the value of the airframe alone and replace the engine immediately?  Or continue flying untill some problem dictates replacement or overhaul?  I would have a mechanic not associated with the seller check it out thoroughly and perhaps do the Annual as part of my pre purchase inspection.  I would try to be present for the Annual if the outcome was satisfactory based on the report i get. This would allow me  to really get into the mechanics of the plane. I would be flying a considerable distance to get it home and want it made "right" to get me there . I would have the PPI done before i would fly out to see it in person. 

 

I will also say I am a student without a PPL and will use this plane for my training and solo flight test. I want to aquire hours and not have the hassle of renting the one useable plane at my flight school to do this. Is this too much of an aircraft for me to learn to fly on?  I have 5 hours so far and no solo yet. I am planning on purchasing something to fly my lessons on anyways and this plane popped up in my search within my budget. I am also concerned about my insurance costs.  I have  always loved the look and performane of Mooneys. I would be cross countrying with my flying instructor or the owner so no worries about getting it home and lots of time to get to know the plane. Hopefully I have given you folks lots of info. My other option is a Grumman AA1b for not much less purchase price. I do want a 4 person aircraft though to travel with my family in the hopefully not too distant future  

 

Any advice and tips on what to look for would be appreciated. 

 

[bonal]

Oh boy here we go again, interesting his name ends in dog. Welcome to Mooney Space from my perspective a little bit more info. Where are you based where do you intend to fly. As I have stated to another poster I think a simple (read non complex) is a better platform for training. Fixed gear and prop take a lot of work load from the basics of learning to fly. I know many here will say the G is a good choice and training in it can be done.  Very true but I stand by my thoughts on getting the right plane for the mission and for training you can't beat a trainer. 

[gsxrpilot]

Welcome to MooneySpace... there is lots of good advice here. I'm sure there will be lots of questions for you shortly. But here are a few everyone will be asking.

• What part of the country are you in?
  • The G can be fine in the east, but maybe a bit underpowered in the mountainous west.
• What ages are your kids?
  • Useful load and legroom could become issues if they're very big.

The Grumman is a much better trainer, but once you learn to fly, you'll prefer the Mooney.

[Marauder]

Oh boy here we go again, interesting his name ends in dog. Welcome to Mooney Space from my perspective a little bit more info. Where are you based where do you intend to fly. As I have stated to another poster I think a simple (read non complex) is a better platform for training. Fixed gear and prop take a lot of work load from the basics of learning to fly. I know many here will say the G is a good choice and training in it can be done.  Very true but I stand by my thoughts on getting the right plane for the mission and for training you can't beat a trainer. 

Funny how similar the titles are as well. "What should i get?" and this one.

[Kejidog]

Hey there. I just read the husky posts and did some research on the site. Sorry i just found this site tonight and posted without really reading much on here. I figure i will get a lot of hours before my purchase but the deal that i found seems too good to let go.

I am in Nova Scotia and plan trips around the atlantic provinces and quebec and ontario on ocassion. Just staying close to home at first to build hours is my intention then branching out to further destinations as i gain hours. 

 

I am probably years away from a complex aircraft as a mooney but my gut tells me this plane is what i need. Plus it is within my initial purchase buget. I have looked at several adds across canada and am searching for a good four seat aircraft. I just don't want to have to buy again and or be stuck with a plane i can't sell after upgrades that i am probably going to do to whatever i buy.  

Sorry for asking about the training questions. My main concern is the high hour engine. Hence the good deal on the plane

[Yetti]

Solo in a trainer, finish the PPL in the Mooney.  The Gs are a bit slower than some other models, but faster than the trainer.  Run the engine till it makes metal, when where the cylinders replaced last?  Insurance would probably be in the 2 AMU range.  Falcon insurance in Kerrville Texas.   Have an extra 10 AMU in the bank to spend on the plane after purchase price.

 

[cnoe]

Many here are wary of training for the PPL in a complex airplane, myself included. With only 5 hours it may also be difficult to define your mission at this time. And as a first time buyer familiarize yourself fully with the hidden costs of ownership; my monthly loan payment is less than half of what I actually spend on flying. Lastly, many prefer to buy a solid airframe with a runout engine, but know that you can easily spend $25K-$35K on a quality overhaul with new accessories and hoses. You might be better off getting your license in an inexpensive trainer before jumping into ownership. Or not.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Kejidog]

Just now, Yetti said:

Solo in a trainer, finish the PPL in the Mooney.  The Gs are a bit slower than some other models, but faster than the trainer.  Run the engine till it makes metal, when where the cylinders replaced last?  Insurance would probably be in the 2 AMU range.  Falcon insurance in Kerrville Texas.   Have an extra 10 AMU in the bank to spend on the plane after purchase price.

 

I am in Canada and yet to look into insurance rates. I figured that would be the way to go solo in the club's 172. I was really just kicking tires and found the mooney. I figure 10 g sounds about right. I have some prior experience i own a westfalia. Cheap to buy. Expensive to make look/ run like new!  Not sure of a top end overhaul. Still emailing owner and reading posts here like crazy! Any advice is appreciated

[DonMuncy]

Price the plane like the engine has to be overhauled immediately. Then fly it like it will last forever. You may get lucky and get several years before overhaul, or not be so lucky and pay for a quick overhaul (like you priced it). Worst case, you break even.

[Raptor05121]

Is the plane on a publicly listed sales website? Post a link so we can look at it.

As a recent student, learn to land someone elses plane. A Mooney is nothing like a Cherokee or 152 where you can plop it down at a wide speed window. If you buy and insure as a student, you're going to spend ~$600 simply because you do not have the ticket. If you finish training first, get the ticket and some hours, your initial insurance will be substantially cheaper. My M20C (same engine, short body, 1900SMOH) with 35k and 500k liability was $1350. I was quoted at 80 hours PPL, no time in make/model, no complex. I plan on running mine until it makes metal.

[Kejidog]

Thank's for the late night replies.The Aircraft is on the other side of the continent and will be hard for me to meet and look the plane over so I am a bit leery to post the link for fear of someone snatching it up from under me before i secure an offer to purchase.  I am speaking from experience as this happened to me before on an automotive site. I bragged about a potential find only to see someone close to the sale location buy it before i could get out to make an offer. If i do decide to buy it and make a deposit to hold my find I will post away. If i don't i will post the link for others. Although it was not that hard to find as I found it in a few hours looking online  

I understand the reluctance people have to recommend me to learn on and fly a a new pilot. But i figure that the cost of rental for the 45 hours would go a long way to making a nest egg for ownership. Within a certain low limit that is.  In Canada it seems to me like a buyers market but maybe I am just only seeing aircraft for sale because i am just looking. 

 

My concern with the Grumman is, while being a nice little training aircraft i would have spent the majority of my cash reserve on purchase and maintenance and upgrades only to have a plane that is too small, with no cross country capabilities. And would not be able to afford to buy what I want 

If their are any Mooney owners in Nova Scotia or close by who are willing to let me ask questions and drool over their aircraft drop me a PM. Some of my big ones are qualified mechanics and instructors with time on the aircraft. 

 

Thanks everyone.  I am learning lots and i was up to the wee hours reading many posts and manuals in the download section

[steingar]

Unfortunately, buying the airplane to train in can work well or badly, depends on what happens to it.

I rather agree with the others, if there are aircraft in your vicinity for rent, renting might be a good way to do your initial training.  There will be other long bodied Mooneys for your purchase.  Also, make certain you sit in one before you take the plunge.  They aren't for everyone.

All that said, getting into the air in a Mooney beats not getting into the air.  They say you should buy your last airplane first (though that's usually followed by something about Bonanzas).  Bigger learning curve in a Mooney than a Skyhawk, but it can be done.  Of course, that'll your gear taking the pounding too.  Also, all that pounding might jar the seals on the wings loose, so you might wind up dealing with leaks.

Also, make certain you have access to a CFI who is comfortable flying a Mooney.  I've had the devil's own time finding someone where I live.

And what the other guy said.  Price it like it doesn't have and engine, and then keep flying the old engine as long as you can.  I'd rather fly behind a runout than a freshly rebuilt one.

[TWinter]

Just glad it's a G model and family and not a SR20 with dogs the OPs asking about..I was afraid I was going to have to clear some computer memory for the discussion.  

Just had to throw that out there for kicks..SH, we are just pushing your buttons.

Kejidog you are asking the right questions at the right site. I think you need to give more info about you and family. How old are the kids? Young and growing. Does the spouse like to fly? Distances and how often?.

Welcome and good luck

 

 

-Tom

[Cyril Gibb]

1 hour ago, Kejidog said:

Thank's for the late night replies.The Aircraft is on the other side of the continent and will be hard for me to meet and look the plane over so I am a bit leery to post the link for fear of someone snatching it up from under me before i secure an offer to purchase. 

It only took 30 seconds to find that G, so it ain't gonna be a secret from anyone looking.  It's not that difficult to ship a plane across the border either way, so prices generally reflect what the largest market (U.S.) will pay.  Considering the current exchange rates, that price is very low in US $$.

If this was a private sale then it "could" be a deal if the seller didn't know the market, but the plane is at a dealer, so they are aware of the true value.  It's probably reasonably reflective of it's real worth.

If you're going to buy a plane to train in, then ensure it's ready to fly.  It would be extremely frustrating to delay your training for the several months of good east coast weather waiting for the maintenance to be completed.

[Kejidog]

10 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

It only took 30 seconds to find that G, so it ain't gonna be a secret from anyone looking.  It's not that difficult to ship a plane across the border either way, so prices generally reflect what the largest market (U.S.) will pay.  Considering the current exchange rates, that price is very low in US $$.

If this was a private sale then it "could" be a deal if the seller didn't know the market, but the plane is at a dealer, so they are aware of the true value.  It's probably reasonably reflective of it's real worth.

If you're going to buy a plane to train in, then ensure it's ready to fly.  It would be extremely frustrating to delay your training for the several months of good east coast weather waiting for the maintenance to be completed.

Yes. The joy of having a convertable peso dollar. It allows our neighbours to eat our lunch!  Lol. Just kidding. 

Yes it is listed by a dealer. The photo is not even the same airframe though.  but my contact has been with the owner, as far as i know. This is all been a learning experience for me,  I was hoping to gain more airtime before i purchaced but if this is a solid airframe with an engine that will make it home. I would be quite happy. If it sits while i train I can probably eat most of the rental fees but after hopefully having time in it all the way across i may really only ever want to fly it!  As I said after looking at a few piper's and the grumman in the same price range of my buget, the M20 really stands out. But I have yet to see it in person

If anyone knows a good Mooney mechanic in BC drop me a message. I was hoping to act as fast as i can to move towards ownership. 

I have seen and sat in a mooney when i was in my early 20's and always liked the size and look/feel of this style of aircraft. I have yet to fly in one and I think it should be as expected. I am so new to avation as a hobby it is all a novel experience to me. 

Currently I am working out a spreadsheet of costs and expences. Looking on here has really taught me a lot already. Thanks for the good info and the helpful replies. 

Ps 

 

Kejimkijuk or Keji is a national park here in Nova Scotia. I had a black lab years ago named that. Great dog with a great name. I was going to use my honda motorcycle's name VFR800 but figured using a flight handle was a bit much for a guy with only 5 hours of training!  

[Bob_Belville]

Once in a while missing out on a great buy happens. Far more often it is better to assume that in a buyers' market there will be other planes when you are really ready. 

I would recommend continuing your training in trainers and continue your education in aircraft in general and Mooneys in particular. If you keep reading ads and study prices vs. engine time and panel improvements you'll develop a feel for what things are worth. 

There were not many M20Gs built. (190 total, almost all in 1968 - the year it was introduced). By that time there were 2 body lengths and 2 engines. The G has the longer body and the small engine. folks quickly decided that it was the least desirable combo and that the longer body "needed" the 200 hp engine. Useful load for the G was no doubt a factor. So... a G (Statesman) is a fine plane except when compared to a C, E, or F. 

But if your family is young/small and since your range is over flatlands and if the price is right... a G might be worth a look.  

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

 

[1524J]

So here's the unvarnished truth about airplane ownership. It's expensive......really expensive. You cannot think when you purchase a plane, it'll be like jumping in your car to take a trip, only faster. Especially until you get your instrument rating and even then if your going somewhere for a few days you've got to be ready to either stay longer, come home sooner or spend some time on the ground in between home and your destination, depending on the weather. Then there's always the unexpected maintenance issues. When we purchased our plane, my parter was grounded in Colorado for four days because of a lost mag. 

Now that we've got that out of the way, welcome to Mooneyspace! If your like me, the above advice just went in one ear and out the other.  

Wait until you get your PPL before purchasing a plane. The cost of rental, in the overall picture, really is peanuts compared to what your going to spend once you purchase. Learn in someone else's plane. There's always a good deal out there where someone has spent way more money on their plane than it'll ever be worth. I know, I've got one and had two previous.   Welcome aboard!

[Bob_Belville]

28 minutes ago, 1524J said:

Wait until you get your PPL before purchasing a plane. The cost of rental, in the overall picture, really is peanuts compared to what your going to spend once you purchase. Learn in someone else's plane. There's always a good deal out there where someone has spent way more money on their plane than it'll ever be worth. I know, I've got one and had two previous.   Welcome aboard!

Wise words - there will be more great deals come along. If you are patient. The overall market for our vintage Mooneys may go up but it is at least as likely that it will go down or remain static. 

[Marauder]

So here's the unvarnished truth about airplane ownership. It's expensive......really expensive. You cannot think when you purchase a plane, it'll be like jumping in your car to take a trip, only faster. Especially until you get your instrument rating and even then if your going somewhere for a few days you've got to be ready to either stay longer, come home sooner or spend some time on the ground in between home and your destination, depending on the weather. Then there's always the unexpected maintenance issues. When we purchased our plane, my parter was grounded in Colorado for four days because of a lost mag. 

Now that we've got that out of the way, welcome to Mooneyspace! If your like me, the above advice just went in one ear and out the other.  

Wait until you get your PPL before purchasing a plane. The cost of rental, in the overall picture, really is peanuts compared to what your going to spend once you purchase. Learn in someone else's plane. There's always a good deal out there where someone has spent way more money on their plane than it'll ever be worth. I know, I've got one and had two previous.   Welcome aboard!

I always get a chuckle when I hear owners selectively indicate some costs are not in their run rate. I look at it as a full disclosure activity. If you didn't own a plane, the money wouldn't be spent. All those "extras" are material when you look at overall ownership cost.

I once calculated how much I spent on aviation. I could have retired 2 years ago...

[TWinter]

11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I always get a chuckle when I hear owners selectively indicate some costs are not in their run rate. I look at it as a full disclosure activity. If you didn't own a plane, the money wouldn't be spent. All those "extras" are material when you look at overall ownership cost.

I once calculated how much I spent on aviation. I could have retired 2 years ago...

I was embarrassed this year when I gave all my tax work to my CPA. The pile of receipts for plane, parts, accessories and service was the biggest pile of expense receipts, also had the highest amounts. 0ppps Aircraft ownership is a sickness, only curable with altitude.

[Raptor05121]

As a 24 year old recent student turned private pilot and now Mooney owner with 100 hours, I mirror what everyone has said here. If you like the plane, get a pre-purchase inspection done on it and place a deposit. I would not recommend you flying a Mooney with only 5 hours. I used a GoPro on all of my flights and looking back at them, I sucked at flying when I was a student. I didn't solo until 12 hours, it took me about 20 hours before my landings were consistent- in a 152. I got my license at 40 hours and transitioned to a Cherokee 180 where I had to learn to land a low wing. It took me another 5 hours to get my landings consistent In that.

If a 5 hour student asked to use my plane to get his/her license, I would politely tell them no, and laugh when they leave. A Mooney is a very temperamental airplane. You're closer to the ground so any porpoising on landing (such as students WILL do) will result in a prop-strike and possibly total the aircraft. Not to mention it will take substantially longer to get your license, possibly 50-60 hours.

Learn to land someone else's plane and at least get 20 hours before you look at planes. There are people on here that got their license in Mooney's, but they did so after getting several hours and landings in much simpler airplanes.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Kejidog said:

Yes. The joy of having a convertable peso dollar. It allows our neighbours to eat our lunch!  Lol. Just kidding. 

Yes it is listed by a dealer. The photo is not even the same airframe though.  but my contact has been with the owner, as far as i know. This is all been a learning experience for me,  I was hoping to gain more airtime before i purchaced but if this is a solid airframe with an engine that will make it home. I would be quite happy. If it sits while i train I can probably eat most of the rental fees but after hopefully having time in it all the way across i may really only ever want to fly it!  As I said after looking at a few piper's and the grumman in the same price range of my buget, the M20 really stands out. But I have yet to see it in person

If anyone knows a good Mooney mechanic in BC drop me a message. I was hoping to act as fast as i can to move towards ownership. 

I have seen and sat in a mooney when i was in my early 20's and always liked the size and look/feel of this style of aircraft. I have yet to fly in one and I think it should be as expected. I am so new to avation as a hobby it is all a novel experience to me. 

Currently I am working out a spreadsheet of costs and expences. Looking on here has really taught me a lot already. Thanks for the good info and the helpful replies. 

Ps 

 

Kejimkijuk or Keji is a national park here in Nova Scotia. I had a black lab years ago named that. Great dog with a great name. I was going to use my honda motorcycle's name VFR800 but figured using a flight handle was a bit much for a guy with only 5 hours of training!  

There is a fairly knowledgeable AME in Ontario who works on Mooneys.

Clarence

[Kejidog]

12 hours ago, TWinter said:

Just glad it's a G model and family and not a SR20 with dogs the OPs asking about..I was afraid I was going to have to clear some computer memory for the discussion.  

Just had to throw that out there for kicks..SH, we are just pushing your buttons.

Kejidog you are asking the right questions at the right site. I think you need to give more info about you and family. How old are the kids? Young and growing. Does the spouse like to fly? Distances and how often?.

Welcome and good luck

 

 

-Tom

Tom, we are two boys, 13 and 11 me and my wife, and the dog Bixby! lol , not that the dog goes anywhere with us in the car so no chance of her in my plane unless she's in a crate. My oldest is in Air Cadets (great Program!)  and wants to fly for a career. Hence me learning and looking to buy. I look forward to many years of future travel to exotic locations......

 

In answer to all the people with the advice on training I appreciate all the honest replies. It is great to get an educated opinion from owners. If I do purchase I would not in all likelihood touch the controls on landing until I had lots of solo hours in a club 172 under my belt. I would be right seat in it all the way across Canada if it meets my inspection and pre buy annual. I have a co-worker who is an instructor with some hours in type to land it when we would be coming across I would gain valuable hours just ferrying it home this would be after I have soloed, but I would expect to do most of the flying to build up my hours . I would not solo it until I was totally confident in my flying abilities and checked out in it. Kinda' like teaching my wife to drive a Manual transmission when we were first married, I went out and rented to save my new VW's Transmission. It seems that I am impulsive in my decisions and want to move forward quickly but I am not BS crazy when it comes to my or my family's life. I have always had a desire to own and fly my own plane and  have stewed on this for several years before taking the plunge. The Mooney seems in all my looking and dreaming to be a nice long range comfortable aircraft for my needs. It is the cost of this one that really caught my eye

I am getting insurance quotes, tie down fees, hourly gas, and maintenance costs to make my decision an educated one. And I am practicing burning 100 dollar bills as a pre buy exercise to train myself on costs! But at the end of the day I would like to own. My problem is that I want to own today! It is the high hours that scare me on the engine not the complexity of the aircraft I would have plenty of time in it before I set out alone in it.

 

Thanks for all your Replies and I will keep you all posted on my scheming

 

Bruce

 

 

 

 

[Kejidog]

6 hours ago, TWinter said:

I was embarrassed this year when I gave all my tax work to my CPA. The pile of receipts for plane, parts, accessories and service was the biggest pile of expense receipts, also had the highest amounts. 0ppps Aircraft ownership is a sickness, only curable with altitude.

Yes But would you be having as much fun? my motto is " You can live rich, or die rich``  or better yet `` you can`t repossess a good time``  

[Raptor05121]

1 hour ago, Kejidog said:

 It is the high hours that scare me on the engine

Bruce, the main concern would be the camshaft and the lifters. Have your mechanic stick a scope down the oil fill tube and take a look see. Also see if you can get an oil sample and cut open the oil filter. Just be prepared to hang an engine on it.