Mooney down in Ocala FL

[Tom]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

A take away for me here is to do whatever I can to help a distressed aircraft or crash victim- as long as it can be done without creating a hazard for others (e.g. crossing an active runway). I would certainly hope a fellow pilot would do the same for me.  Deal with any consequences later - the  folks loitering on the ramp and saying don't try to help can go f*ck themselves.

It's a little more complicated than this.  Foot-traffic pedestrians represent a hazard for EMS response vehicles on the airfield.  Even if the pedestrian first-responder didn't care about his own safety the EMS guys do.  It's not unusual (or unexpected) for tower to restrict movement to specifically help facilitate a quicker EMS response. 

[1524J]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

It's a little more complicated than this.  Foot-traffic pedestrians represent a hazard for EMS response vehicles on the airfield.  Even if the pedestrian first-responder didn't care about his own safety the EMS guys do.  It's not unusual (or unexpected) for tower to restrict movement to specifically help facilitate a quicker EMS response. 

I don't disagree with your premise, and it's difficult to judge without being onsite, but as a trained first responder myself, I would have gone to the aid of the individuals. Ocala, although towered, appears to be a fairly small facility with low traffic. I doubt, and from the sounds of the personal account, they have their own first responder team. In these instances, time is clearly critical. There are Good Samaritan laws which protect individuals trying to help. 

[DXB]

8 hours ago, Tom said:

It's a little more complicated than this.  Foot-traffic pedestrians represent a hazard for EMS response vehicles on the airfield.  Even if the pedestrian first-responder didn't care about his own safety the EMS guys do.  It's not unusual (or unexpected) for tower to restrict movement to specifically help facilitate a quicker EMS response. 

Yes- 1st responders know all too well that bystander efforts can easily tip from helping to impeding.  It's essential to stay hyper-aware of ones environment so as not to impede, or get hurt, and back off quickly when real rescue and EMS arrive.  But for a witnessed  small plane crash with potential survivors, a single individual with appropriate skills arriving on foot can have a real impact in the initial minutes- particularly in a case where the official response is somewhat delayed- as it seems to have been here.  

 

BTW  Tony I stupidly didnt realize you were the poster on Beechtalk?   I can hardly fault anyone for rushing to this accident scene, or not, particularly as I didnt see this particular situation myself. Your post just reminded me of my contempt for similar bystander behavior I've been exposed to when trying to help a victim of another (nonaviation) accident.  

[PMcClure]

We are all taught to follow the rules and leave things to the authorities.  I will not 2nd guess the eyewitness decisions since I was not there. But I have discussed this type of issue with my oldest son who has a strong "protect" instinct. We decided together that we would respond if possible to events. This includes accidents, emergencies and even attacks. I really think this needs to be a decision made in advance, not in the moment. Of course it needs to be tempered by the facts of the situation when it arrises.  I would rather not be the bystander who wishes they had done something if I can avoid it. The discussion started with the idea of an gunman style attack. But ended with other types of situations discussed as well. 

 

[bradp]

57 minutes ago, DXB said:

BTW  Tony I stupidly didnt realize you were the poster on Beechtalk?   I can hardly fault anyone for rushing to this accident scene, or not, particularly as I didnt see this particular situation myself. Your post just reminded me of my contempt for similar bystander behavior I've been exposed to when trying to help a victim of another (nonaviation) accident.  

I think a guy named David Malin over at beech talk was the responder.  

[1524J]

There will never be two "emergency" situations that are identical. Each requires assessment before engaging. I stated earlier that I would have gone to aid. A more accurate statement, I would have gotten close enough to make a determination to aid....or not.The closer you get to an incident, the better your able to assess the evironment. There have been multiple studies done that indicate most people in an emergency situation will stand by and do nothing and for various reasons. Even the most rudimentary training will allow us to overcome most of the "standby" reaction or reasoning. While I agree we should obey authorities, never give up your own ability to assess and act if necessary. Much like being PIC. 

[Guest]

I've been unlucky enough to among the first reposponder at 2 crashes on our field, events I try not to think of often. One was a crash of a Europa homebuilt which crashed off the end of the runway, it burst into flames with nothing to be done for the poor sole who luckily died on impact.  The second was an R22 helicopter which crashed into a storm water pond beside my shop, the student survived, but the instructor lost her life on the lawn beside the pond.  

Our hobby is dangerous and extremely unforgiving of carelessness or stupidity.  Our local pilots group recently had pilots using a simulator to try the 180 turn after engine failure on departure.  I was taught better to land straight ahead into whatever wind you have for the slowest possible touchdown.  Even a modest 5 kt head wind results in a 10 kt faster downwind landing after executing a 180 turn, if you make the turn at all.  

Mike, Don what do you teach?

Clarence

[Marauder]

I'm not sure why everyone forgets what the old guy said:

"If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible."

— Bob Hoover

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Yooper Rocketman]

There is a guy on in our Lancair group that is alive today because a "bystander" pulled him out of the burning wreck before he was burnt alive.  Good thing that didn't happen in Ocala.

 

Tom

[carusoam]

Sometimes I write and don't post... I wrote this two days ago...

 

Sometimes you take important decisions into your own hands...

1) an injured person may not be able to wait.

2) a fire may be starting slowly, but won't stay small for long.

3) an eyewitness with a cell phone can be a life saver.

4) Knowing where the extinguisher is stored could really help.

5) knowing first aid skills and safety around the airport environment is important.

6) knowing an accident site may look pretty grizzly, and still going in to help...

I would prefer a Mooney pilot to be by my side making his best decisions, than an absence of anyone because the rules said so.

Some time you may get called on to do the right thing.  Proceed with caution.

-----------------------

Today,

I know someone alive today, because a lady with a cell phone stopped for him... (Non-aviation event). The next person started CPR on him. The ambulance took a while to get there.  The ride to the hospital took 50+ minutes.  The volunteer group of people started the CPR and called an ambulance and saved that guy's bacon long enough for the pros to arrive...

do the best you can, with what you have.  You may make a difference...

Some day they may repay the same favor for you...

It would really be tough to find out, you could have helped.

Plan on landing straight ahead.  Minimize the speed.

Anyone with an AOA have input regarding the 180 turn using the AOA?  

There is going to be a time that the energy available isn't enough to turn the plane around in the allotted space.  A stall speed and angle of bank chart can pretty much do the same thing if you have it memorized.  The nose down attitude makes it difficult to use a large chart from memory during such  a stressful situation.

My humble thoughts,

-a-

[Tom]

Can we at least agree that it is completely imprudent to lambast a Cirrus pilot who floated down in the middle of an open field after an engine out?

[kevinw]

I came across this engine out video on youtube the other day. C182 with a camera that catches the entire event. The pilot did a great job; didn't turn back and landed it in a field with the stall horn sounding. 

 

[jetdriven]

There was a long thread over on BT about that one as well.  He panicked and froze and just happened to be in a clear area when the ground met him.  But at least he didn't try to turn back. 

[1524J]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

Can we at least agree that it is completely imprudent to lambast a Cirrus pilot who floated down in the middle of an open field after an engine out?

i agree. We need to take these events, learn from them and perhaps make a commitment to ourselves to improve our training and skill as pilots. Seems like a good way to show respect to those providing the instruction.  

[mike_elliott]

23 hours ago, DXB said:

Yes- 1st responders know all too well that bystander efforts  easily tip from helping to impeding.  It's essential to stay hyper-aware of ones environment so as not to impede, or get hurt, and back off quickly when real rescue and EMS arrive.  But for a witnessed  small plane crash with potential survivors, a single individual with appropriate skills arriving on foot can have a real impact in the initial minutes- particularly in a case where the official response is somewhat delayed- as it seems to have been here.  

 

BTW  Tony I stupidly didnt realize you were the poster on Beechtalk?   I can hardly fault anyone for rushing to this accident scene, or not, particularly as I didnt see this particular situation myself. Your post just reminded me of my contempt for similar bystander behavior I've been exposed to when trying to help a victim of another (nonaviation) accident.  

!st responders are the key to survival.

[mike_elliott]

15 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

There is a guy on in our Lancair group that is alive today because a "bystander" pulled him out of the burning wreck before he was burnt alive.  Good thing that didn't happen in Ocala.

 

Tom

There is a guy right here on Mooneyspace that is alive today because of a couple of "bystanders" pulling him from a burning plane. Thanks Bobby Forsythe and Stan Breeden! I literally owe you (and the entire trama team at Community in Indy) my life.

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

There was a long thread over on BT about that one as well.  He panicked and froze and just happened to be in a clear area when the ground met him.  But at least he didn't try to turn back. 

How much experience did that pilot have? Hyperventilating(?) set in fast.

[PMcClure]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

There was a long thread over on BT about that one as well.  He panicked and froze and just happened to be in a clear area when the ground met him.  But at least he didn't try to turn back. 

That would not have worked in My Ovation. With the kind of pitch you can get on initial climb, you better be ready to push hard on the yoke to avoid a stall when the fan goes quiet. Landing straight forward sounds easy to do when there is a field in front. How hard it must be when only buildings or trees. 

[ArtVandelay]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

How much experience did that pilot have? Hyperventilating(?) set in fast.

I have a hard time criticizing someone who walks away from an engine out...maybe he froze, but sometimes the best thing you can do is nothing until your brain recovers.

[Tom]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

There is a guy right here on Mooneyspace that is alive today because of a couple of "bystanders" pulling him from a burning plane. Thanks Bobby Forsythe and Stan Breeden! I literally owe you (and the entire trama team at Community in Indy) my life.

There's also a guy right here on Mooneyspace who was an airport firefighter (ARFF))/EMT at MCAS El Toro from 1991-1993 who later in life as a physician has managed all manner of significant trauma (including a month in the burn unit as a surgical intern).  I'm certainly happy that you had a good outcome and I wish the same for others.

It needs to be recognized that in the present accident, given the incident observations available, that the witnesses in reality could have done nothing.  The discussion morphed from someone describing survivor guilt to an advocacy movement favoring Good Samaritan efforts, even if defying instructions that are meant to increase victim survival.  I in no way mean to discourage acting to help another and I don't think that someone needs to be a medic to respond.

Were I personally to be wrapped in an aluminum ball 6-8 minutes from foot responders and 8-10 minutes from EMS guys driving full-tilt during an adrenaline dump, I personally wouldn't want the foot responders to place themselves at risk as they'd be able to do basically nothing essential in the 2-4 minutes until EMS arrived.  I'd have chosen poorly if there was a small fire that grew and I was stuck, but the airway/bleeding concerns are not relevant in this scenario.  If someone wants a gory debate, take it to PMs.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Tom

[Tom]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 8:44 PM, 1524J said:

Even the most rudimentary training will allow us to overcome most of the "standby" reaction or reasoning. 

If this were true, this accident (any many like it) probably would not have had this outcome.  (disclaimer: assuming the pilot was attempting the impossible turn)

53 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I have a hard time criticizing someone who walks away from an engine out...maybe he froze, but sometimes the best thing you can do is nothing until your brain recovers.

My beef here (not with you Teejay) is that everyone thinks that they are not going to be "that guy" when these types of things happens to normal people just like us.  And God forbid a guy with a parachute-equipped plane pulls the chute--he survives, probably walks away, but is ridiculed by other pilots.  How idiotic is this.  The chute technology is either dismissed or discounted to be equivalent to "good training or proper flight proficiency."  It is accidents exactly like this one which should cause intelligent people (at least the ones who feel their life is worth $25K) to want to have a chute on board. 

Condolences to the victim here.  There but by the grace of God go I.

[FloridaMan]

Judged by 12 vs carried by 6. It's an emergency situation; the tower has the authority to cancel already issued clearances. My engine failure occurred at a controlled field with airline service and firefighting and law enforcement on the field. We had already exited the airplane and were just waiting around for several minutes before the first responders, the police, showed up; the firefighters/EMTs were several minutes later. I have been to a Mooney crash site in East Hampton, a member here, where there was a post impact fire that completely destroyed the airframe down to the tubes. Had he not maintained consciousness and been able to get him and his wife out, they would've been cremated in that fire. 

Remember, when the engine stops making power, the airplane no longer belongs to you, it belongs to the insurance company and it is your job to save your passengers and your own life at that point. 

[mike_elliott]

Unfortunately, in my case, the ER guys were detained by a train blocking the road. They were too late to help Bill. The fire was too intense for the first responders to aid him also. Both of my rescuers had trama training in the service, as was a Nurse practicioner who tended to an unconscious me waiting for the train to pass and the er crew to arrive.

Doing nothing is not a good option when time is of the essence, imo

[1524J]

3 hours ago, Tom said:

.It needs to be recognized that in the present accident, given the incident observations available, that the witnesses in reality could have done nothing. 

 but the airway/bleeding concerns are not relevant in this scenario.  .

I assume you're the EMT turned physician Tom. I'm not sure how you can make the statements above, even with your considerable experience, unless you have information the rest of us don't. While I agree we need to be careful about criticizing individuals in any emergency event, it's certainly a good idea to discuss and debate actions taken. We've done exactly that for the 20+ years I've been a first responder in the industrial complex where I work. And training, even basic training, helps overcome the fear of becoming involved. If not, Red Cross should rethink their CPR/1st aid classes. Just my humble opinion from the limited experiences I've had.

I may have put words in your mouth regarding airway/bleeding concerns as you were probably referring to the hypothetical scenario where you were trapped. I didn't edit so everyone would understand. I apologize if that was your intent.

[MyNameIsNobody]

10 hours ago, Tom said:

Can we at least agree that it is completely imprudent to lambast a Cirrus pilot who floated down in the middle of an open field after an engine out?

Ticks are much less tenacious...

About the same degree of annoying.